[RD] Why y'all always trying to defend Nazis?

[Traitorfish]

Any objections? No? Motion carried!

 

[Ryika]

So where on the scale of "irritant" to "menace" do we place fascists?

Should we be talking about the "fascist nuisance"? I'll admit I'm tempted, simply because I know how sensitive they are to status.

I think "nuisance" fits pretty well when we're talking about danger to the state. Of course you'd have to explain that to the people who have been victims of an attack of the fascists who exist, or have lost loved ones to such an attack, which could be pretty difficult.

But the point is that the "violent place" that anti-fascists supposedly find themselves in, that you use to justify that they are violent, are just not an explanation for the violence that these people engage in. That could only be the case if fascism was this overarching thing that is just omnipresent in the state, which it isn't, was threatening to overtake the country, which it isn't, or very dense in the spaces that the violent Anti-Fascists engage in - which it is in some places, such as the Charlottesville rally, but it certainly wasn't in other occasions where parts of the Anti-Fascists got violent, or where Antifa was violent against people who most certainly were not fascists, some of which were mentioned on the last two pages.

So while I agree that only a small fraction of the people actually got violent at all, it is most certainly not just them being "in a violent place", no, it is them bringing violence, sometimes to people who engage in violence of their own, but often just against people who themselves were not interested in engaging in violence at all. It is just not reasonable to pretend that the violent parts of the protest are victims of the circumstances, they wanted to bring that violence, and they brought it, and there's no excuse for doing so.

 

[Commodore]

So why do they keep killing people?

Why do Trump supporters continue to get assaulted in the streets? Would you say those assaults are carried out by an organized leftist movement? No, because such a claim is, as you have already stated, outrageous. Same goes for these so-called fascists. The idea of an organized violent white supremacist movement is a fearmongering myth perpetuated by the left, just like the idea of an organized violent "Antifa" movement is a myth perpetuated by the right.

The problem is while you correctly point out the ridiculous nature of one myth, you have fallen for the other.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Considering more people are killed by their toasters than by far right extremists in the US nowadays, I think the scale of the Nazi threat is being blown a wee bit out of proportion.

What a strange comparison. Toasters are inanimate, non-sentient objects that have no political ideology, nor do they even care if they work correctly, if they have some mechanical fault, or if the humans who use them are utter morons who don't know any better than to stick a metal object into a toaster that's plugged in.

Nazis, however, are sentient, have a definite political ideology, have the choice over what they think and do, and they care very much whether or not they succeed in what they intend to do.

 

[luiz]

What a strange comparison. Toasters are inanimate, non-sentient objects that have no political ideology, nor do they even care if they work correctly, if they have some mechanical fault, or if the humans who use them are utter morons who don't know any better than to stick a metal object into a toaster that's plugged in.

Nazis, however, are sentient, have a definite political ideology, have the choice over what they think and do, and they care very much whether or not they succeed in what they intend to do.

I'm not saying toasters are more evil than Nazis. I'm saying they killed more people in the US in recent years. I'm saying pampered mommas boys who like violence and to feel important are blowing the threat posed by Nazis way out of proportion so they can justify their thuggery, and claim that assaulted immigrants and innocent women are just unfortunate collateral damage of their noble fight. When the cold objective reality is that they are beating up people for how they look.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

I'm not saying toasters are more evil than Nazis. I'm saying they killed more people in the US in recent years. I'm saying pampered mommas boys who like violence and to feel important are blowing the threat posed by Nazis way out of proportion so they can justify their thuggery, and claim that assaulted immigrants and innocent women are just unfortunate collateral damage of their noble fight. When the cold objective reality is that they are beating up people for how they look.

I know you're not saying toasters are evil, period. That's the point. You're comparing humans with a particular ideology to inanimate objects that can't possibly have an ideology. It would make more sense to compare groups of humans with different ideologies.

And I do understand that there are some counter-protesters who use that opportunity to express their own hostilities, thus showing themselves to be either hypocrites or merely unable to "be the better person" (granting that beating up people or vandalizing stores is a very serious way of not "being a better person").

 

[Traitorfish]

I think "nuisance" fits pretty well when we're talking about danger to the state. Of course you'd have to explain that to the people who have been victims of an attack of the fascists who exist, or have lost loved ones to such an attack, which could be pretty difficult.

And that might be the disconnect. Fascists can attack minorities and leftists without seriously impacting upon the authority of the state, especially if- as often turns out to be the case- the state quietly approves of these attacks. The threat posed by fascists is not measured in the likelihood of their taking over the state; that's the far end of a very long arc, with a lot of blood along the way.

Why do Trump supporters continue to get assaulted in the streets? Would you say those assaults are carried out by an organized leftist movement? No, because such a claim is, as you have already stated, outrageous. Same goes for these so-called fascists. The idea of an organized violent white supremacist movement is a fearmongering myth perpetuated by the left, just like the idea of an organized violent "Antifa" movement is a myth perpetuated by the right.

The problem is while you correctly point out the ridiculous nature of one myth, you have fallen for the other.

Let's break this phrase down, because I think that it's the key point of contention.

Is there a white supremacist movement in the United States? That's really beyond disagreement.

Is that movement organised? If it's staging marches on the scale of Charlottesville, it appears to be at least somewhat organised.

Is it violent? Judging by the casualty lists, at least a part of it is.

So the question is whether the violence itself is organised; an [organised], [violent] [white supremacist movement] against an [organised, violent] [white supremacist movement]. And that, I'll grant, has not yet clearly manifest itself. Right-wing violence in the United States has been, so far, the act of individuals and very small groups. But is the distance between "organisation + violence" and "organised violence" great enough that we feel safe just snoozing on this one?

 

[Berzerker]

A neo-Nazi commits an indiscriminate attack on protesters, killing one and wounding over a dozen, and your concern is that the Nazis are going to come out of this looking bad?

You really don't have any kind of moral compass at all, do you?

I didn't mention the Nazis, look at the quote... You keep talking about them, not me - and now you've replaced my criticism of antifa with concern for how Nazis look while lecturing me about your superior moral compass. You said the Nazis are to blame because someone died at their rally (does that include all the other people there supporting the statue?) and I pointed out how I'd feel if I was attacking the guy who got in his car to escape and drove off hitting people - I was explaining why antifa members shouldn't be feeling so good about themselves.

If I start a fight that erupts into a street brawl, how do I escape responsibility when someone dies? I lie to myself... I tell me I was saving lives

See? Antifa, we saved lives... BS, you got someone killed.

I dont know how you turned that into how the Nazis will look, but that required more effort than what you put into understanding and answering my question (which you ignored of course). If we're assigning blame beyond the driver, then some of it falls on antifa for starting a brawl and if the driver was in reality under attack and trying to escape, the people attacking him share the blame even more. They should be prosecuted too... As for my moral compass, I'm not on the side justifying attacks on protesters, are you?

Chomsky's usual weird reverence for universal civil rights aside... <---->

For a guy who wrote Manufacturing goddam Consent, he's really starting to lose his grip.

wow...the mighty fall and are devoured

it's not evidence of a realised strategy of violence. If it seems otherwise, it's because you're allowing an hysterical and essentially reactionary news media to do your thinking for you, rather than looking to the reports of those actually on the ground engaged with the fascist threat.

You posted a photo from the hysterical media claiming it portrayed violent Nazis - it was a few guns rights activists in fatigues standing around defending themselves and keeping the peace. In the background is at least one antifa with armor and a club avoiding them. Out of those few men, wanna bet on who got violent that day? Antifa attacks people, that is their strategy.

What has caused you to have such antisemetic views? Did a Jewish man sleep with your wife?

Why are my questions anti-semitic? TF compared Jews to a bunch of political street thugs and you think I'm being anti-semitic for challenging the comparison?

 

[Commodore]

Is that movement organised? If it's staging marches on the scale of Charlottesville,

If you are going with that, then you are going to have to roll back your insistence that "Antifa" isn't an organized leftist movement since those claiming to be "Antifa" have organized demonstrations on a similar scale to Charlottesville. At least, if you are interested in being logically consistent.

Also, so far Charlottesville was a one-off thing. Sure, other such marches have been threatened (for lack of a better term) but so far nothing has come of them. I would also say the size of a demostration, whether peaceful or violent, isn't really an indicator of how organized a given movement is. History is replete with instances of large-scale demonstrations and riots that had no real organization or leadership, and just sort of happened. I would even go as far to say large-scale rioting occurs specifically because of a lack of organization within a political movement.

 

[Traitorfish]

If you are going with that, then you are going to have to roll back your insistence that "Antifa" isn't an organized leftist movement since those claiming to be "Antifa" have organized demonstrations on a similar scale to Charlottesville. At least, if you are interested in being logically consistent.

When? They certainly didn't do so in Charlottesville; the counter-protest was organised by local faith and community groups, and the local branch of Democratic Socialists of America. It wasn't organised by the Antifascist Action network, which is what the term "Antifa" very generally means among people who've done any research, which I'll grant may be a stumbling block in this thread. As far as I know, other demonstrations in Berkeley and Boston and so on were organised by a similar coalition of anti-racist and anti-fascist groups, rather than by the mysterious Antifa.

Also, so far Charlottesville was a one-off thing. Sure, other such marches have been threatened (for lack of a better term) but so far nothing has come of them. I would also say the size of a demostration, whether peaceful or violent, isn't really an indicator of how organized a given movement is. History is replete with instances of large-scale demonstrations and riots that had no real organization or leadership, and just sort of happened. I would even go as far to say large-scale rioting occurs specifically because of a lack of organization within a political movement.

Nobody ever said that it was well-organised. The left is hardly well- or coherently-organised, but it wouldn't be incorrect to talk about an "organised left" as distinct from the greater body of sympathisers and unorganised fellow-travelers.

I'll grant that the scale of a demonstration is not proof of organisation- but Charlottesville was some distance out of the way of a majority of the demonstrators, and was organised around a relatively nebulous principle, and that does change things. It wasn't a large city and it wasn't, not really, about any immediate political issue. (The organisers were pretty open that the statue-thing was just a pretext; it was billed as "United the Right" not "Save Our Dumb Statue".) To jump through all the bureaucratic hoops, to promote it widely enough and provide sufficient guidance to ensure a decent turnout, that requires, if not an organisation, then some degree of organisation.

 

[Berzerker]

Seems anti-semitic to compare Jews to antifa thugs, wouldn't you say TF? Cake? Where'd ya go?

 

[Berzerker]

http://www.wcpo.com/news/national/c...charge-black-victim-of-parking-garage-beating

the young man who got attacked in the garage is being charged with assault too... Seems they got video of him attacking someone before he got attacked.

If only the refs could use instant replay instead of throwing the flag at the last player to throw a punch

 

[FriendlyFire]

http://www.wcpo.com/news/national/c...charge-black-victim-of-parking-garage-beating
the young man who got attacked in the garage is being charged with assault too... Seems they got video of him attacking someone before he got attacked.
If only the refs could use instant replay instead of throwing the flag at the last player to throw a punch

Welp
Let me guess facts have a Liberal Bias.

In video of the parking garage fight, the man identified as Crews tries to spear a counterprotester with the pole of a Confederate flag. Harris retaliates, swinging a flashlight at Crews, appearing to strike him
https://www.washingtonpost.com/loca..._story.html?tid=pm_pop&utm_term=.ac40e0079dce

 

[Berzerker]

then why'd they arrest and charge him?

sounds like self defense...or defense of the guy being hit

 

[caketastydelish]

Seems anti-semitic to compare Jews to antifa thugs, wouldn't you say TF? Cake? Where'd ya go?

Old thread but I didn’t see this until now. For the record, if a Jew wants to punch a nazi (or actually does it),
I can hardly blame them for that regardless of whether or not they’re in Antifa, or anything else about their political affiliation. It would also be hypocritical for the nazi to complain about being attacked by a Jew. If you can dish it out then you can take it. And besides. Being Jewish by birth isn’t a choice. Being a nazi is a choice.

 

[warpus]

I'd like to think that if I saw a dude walking down the street dressed in a full on Nazi uniform, holding a nazi flag, I'd run out there and kick him right in the nuts.

But I'd probably be afraid that I'm disrupting the filming of some movie and not do it

 

[Arakhor]

Moderator Action: I don't think that this is a profitable thread-bump. Let's let sleeping threads lie, thanks.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Moderator Action: I locked it.