[RD] Why y'all always trying to defend Nazis?

[luiz]

In case people are still wondering why moderates don't like the idea of "Antifas" going around punching "Nazis", I found this illuminating passage about the Berkeley protests :

The protests continued for several hours afterwards, with some protesters moving into downtown Berkeley to break windows at several banks, a Starbucks, a Target, a Sprint store, and a T-Mobile store.[8][6] Among those assaulted were a Syrian Muslim who was pepper sprayed and hit with a rod by a protester who said "You look like a Nazi",[9]and Kiara Robles, who was pepper sprayed while being interviewed by a TV reporter.[10]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Berkeley_protests

So, the way I see things, both Antifa and Neonazis like to beat up immigrants and people who "look wrong".

 

[Lexicus]

So, the way I see things, both Antifa and Neonazis like to beat up immigrants and people who "look wrong".

"Both Hitler and the Western Allies like to drop bombs on cities"

 

[luiz]

"Both Hitler and the Western Allies like to drop bombs on cities"

So you're arguing that those Antifa thugs actually had a good reason to beat up the Syrian immigrat? And you see no problem in letting those imbeciles decide who "looks like a Nazi" and thus deserve a beating?

 

[caketastydelish]

Going specifically after nazis is one thing, but damaging the private property of businesses that have nothing to do with nazis, or against a syrian immigrant which also has nothing to do with nazis, and things like this, is what has caused Antifa to get a bad reputation.

What should be done is simple. Round up every one of those animals and put them in jail. Only let them out when they have demonstrated that they know how to make an honest living and become a peaceful member of society.

 

[Lexicus]

So you're arguing that those Antifa thugs actually had a good reason to beat up the Syrian immigrat? And you see no problem in letting those imbeciles decide who "looks like a Nazi" and thus deserve a beating?

Of course that's not what I'm claiming, it's just that you want to be really careful about claiming any kind of moral equivalency between that and actual Nazis. Kind of like how there is no moral equivalency between the conduct of the German Army in the USSR, and the conduct of the Red Army in Germany.

 

[Archon_Wing]

Poor Nazis, always getting blamed first. I wonder why..... Surely, they didn't do anything to have anything have their reputation precede them.

....

 

[luiz]

Of course that's not what I'm claiming, it's just that you want to be really careful about claiming any kind of moral equivalency between that and actual Nazis. Kind of like how there is no moral equivalency between the conduct of the German Army in the USSR, and the conduct of the Red Army in Germany.

I see thugs who like beating up people for no reason. When you beat up a Syrian immigrat because "he looks like a Nazi" you're behaving exactly like neonazis who beat up people because of how they look. There is total moral equivalency.

Both modern neo-Nazis and Antifas are just punks engaged in random acts of violence; neither will take over the country and promote a new Holocaust or whatever. They are equivalents.

 

[Ryika]

Of course that's not what I'm claiming, it's just that you want to be really careful about claiming any kind of moral equivalency between that and actual Nazis. Kind of like how there is no moral equivalency between the conduct of the German Army in the USSR, and the conduct of the Red Army in Germany.

Poor Nazis, always getting blamed first. I wonder why..... Surely, they didn't do anything to have anything have their reputation precede them.

I have a question for you two, and I would like to see if you're able to give a direct answer without deflecting to another topic:

Was it right or wrong of the protesters in Berkeley to hit a Syrian Muslim?

 

[Archon_Wing]

I have a question for you two, and I would like to see if you're able to give a direct answer without deflecting to another topic:

Was it right or wrong of the protesters in Berkeley to hit a Syrian Muslim?

It was wrong.

 

[caketastydelish]

One thing I want to add about these nazi groups, that some people say about them, that I want to dispute.

"Now that Trump got elected these nazis are all over the place". I disagree with that. The prejudice, racism, and hate is what allowed Trump to get elected in the first place. It was already there to begin, else Trump couldn't have won. This is the reason for the nazi groups, not that Trump got elected and then they all magically came out of a vacuum. The masses are the problem, and Trump is just symbolic of the problem.

Trump has done all he realistically can to make his racist voters happy, and they will definitely be voting for him in 2020. The real question is will voters who meet the description of "white underclass who feels screwed by the republican establishment and maybe even the democrat one who wants a good paying job, but isn't necessarily racist" would vote for him. A lot of people from that description have been mostly Republican their entire lives, but felt the Republican establishment was not serving them, and they were correct to presume it. But they were wrong to presume that Trump was the solution.

Which brings up another point. It's one thing to just say I'm not going to vote for (insert democratic candidate here). I'd rather not vote at all, or vote for Jill Stein, or Ron Paul, or Darth Vader, or whatever. It's another thing to specifically vote for Trump. Just not voting for the democrat is one understandable thing, but casting your vote specifically for that man, especially in the 2020 election after what we now know of him, would make me think less of you.

 

[Ryika]

Random related article I found: Berkeley City Council OKs police use of pepper spray on violent protesters

Ben Shapiro is invited to Berkeley tomorrow (I think it's tomorrow at least), will be interesting to see what happens.

 

[Lexicus]

I see thugs who like beating up people for no reason. When you beat up a Syrian immigrat because "he looks like a Nazi" you're behaving exactly like neonazis who beat up people because of how they look. There is total moral equivalency.

Both modern neo-Nazis and Antifas are just punks engaged in random acts of violence; neither will take over the country and promote a new Holocaust or whatever. They are equivalents.

Just a reminder that at Charlottesville the fascists murdered someone in a terrorist action and people are regularly killed in the US by far-right extremists. How many people has Antifa killed in its entire existence? I get that you hate Antifa but you have overreached yourself this time. Even the most pearl-clutching anti-antifa takes in the mainstream press have generally qualified their garbage by saying there is not a moral equivalence between antifa and fascists.

 

[Traitorfish]

What should be done is simple. Round up every one of those animals and put them in jail. Only let them out when they have demonstrated that they know how to make an honest living and become a peaceful member of society.

idk, seems like if you're trying to present yourself as King Not-a-Nazi, comparing human beings to animals and calling for them to be put into camps might not be the surest path.

 

[luiz]

Just a reminder that at Charlottesville the fascists murdered someone in a terrorist action and people are regularly killed in the US by far-right extremists. How many people has Antifa killed in its entire existence? I get that you hate Antifa but you have overreached yourself this time. Even the most pearl-clutching anti-antifa takes in the mainstream press have generally qualified their garbage by saying there is not a moral equivalence between antifa and fascists.

If you ask the Syrian immigrat who was beaten with a rod and pepper sprayed because of the way he looks, I think he will answer that he too sees no difference between fascists and the supposed anti-fascists.

Way more people are killed by their domestic appliances than by far-right extremists in the US. They are punks who like violence and beating up people who look different (much like the Antifa), but they're not some national security threat. By all means prosecute the violent ones to the fullest extent of the law, they're scum. But you blow their importance way out of proportion.

 

[Lexicus]

If you ask the Syrian immigrat who was beaten with a rod and pepper sprayed because of the way he looks, I think he will answer that he too sees no difference between fascists and the supposed anti-fascists.

Ironically, the fascist government of Syria very likely figures into the reason he came to the United States in the first place. Which is a perfect illustration of the moral difference we're talking about here. Antifa's attack on him was completely inexcusable, stupid, ridiculous. But the fascists back in Syria are actually in the later stages of totally destroying the country to retain their grip on power. This has resulted in hundreds of thousands of deaths. There is no way that Antifa mistakenly pepper-spraying a guy is morally equivalent to that.

Way more people are killed by their domestic appliances than by far-right extremists in the US. They are punks who like violence and beating up people who look different (much like the Antifa), but they're not some national security threat. By all means prosecute the violent ones to the fullest extent of the law, they're scum. But you blow their importance way out of proportion.

But now you're responding to an argument I never made. Obviously, we are in disagreement about the significance of the far right in the United States. The executive branch is essentially controlled by these people, after all, and only their cartoonish incompetence has saved us from worse than we're enduring. But my point wasn't about the "importance" of the far right, it was specifically refuting your claim that they are morally equivalent to Antifa. It's simply not a sustainable claim given that one of these groups (I know I'm generalizing, the far-right isn't really a "group" but Antifa isn't either) regularly kills people as an inherent part of bringing about its ideological goals and the other engages in counterproductive and wrong-headed tactics in what is essentially (in my view anyway) a "good fight."

 

[REDY]

Assad is benevolent socialist dictator and majority of opponents are religious fanatics. I can see why he is supported by majority of syrians.

 

[caketastydelish]

To answer the thread/OP:

The day I might start to "defend nazis" is the day nazis defend me. Why should I do anything for the nazis when the nazis haven't done anything for me? Charity is not a good practice, and the nazis should just get jobs and learn to fend for themselves.

 

[luiz]

Ironically, the fascist government of Syria very likely figures into the reason he came to the United States in the first place. Which is a perfect illustration of the moral difference we're talking about here. Antifa's attack on him was completely inexcusable, stupid, ridiculous. But the fascists back in Syria are actually in the later stages of totally destroying the country to retain their grip on power. This has resulted in hundreds of thousands of deaths. There is no way that Antifa mistakenly pepper-spraying a guy is morally equivalent to that.

And if we were discussing the Assad regime or the Third Reich, you would be correct. But we're discussing two gangs in the US (and the Western world). The "fascists" is the US are not killing hundreds of thousands, nor will they. That's like saying communist youths are worse because Stalin and Mao killed millions.

The gangs themselves are equivalent. Their ideology is just a silly mask used to excuse violent behavior. Otherwise the Antifa would not be beating up immigrants, would they?

But now you're responding to an argument I never made. Obviously, we are in disagreement about the significance of the far right in the United States. The executive branch is essentially controlled by these people, after all, and only their cartoonish incompetence has saved us from worse than we're enduring. But my point wasn't about the "importance" of the far right, it was specifically refuting your claim that they are morally equivalent to Antifa. It's simply not a sustainable claim given that one of these groups (I know I'm generalizing, the far-right isn't really a "group" but Antifa isn't either) regularly kills people as an inherent part of bringing about its ideological goals and the other engages in counterproductive and wrong-headed tactics in what is essentially (in my view anyway) a "good fight."

What good fight? Who is the Antifa really fighting in the west? Syrian immigrats? Women giving interviews to TV stations? Cars, many of the ones they damaged actually belonging to poor people and immigrants?

The Antifa in the US is not like partisans in Nazi occupied Europe, using violent tactics for a noble goal. They're thugs beating up people and destroying stuff for no reason, using ideology to mask their thuggery. Concretely they are no different than gangs of far right extremists, who also pose no significant threat whatsoever to the establishment and basically just behave like thugs.

 

[Nexlev]

Most of the time, I don't agree that the people being called Nazis are actually Nazis, so I end up defending them. Also, I tend to see myself possibly in the shoes of the people attacked, because it happens at events that I might have attended out of curiosity or interest in one of the speakers. So I don't like to encourage mentally ill strangers who might misidentify me as a Nazi.

 

[Wastl]

Assad is benevolent socialist dictator and majority of opponents are religious fanatics. I can see why he is supported by majority of syrians.

Now that is complete nonsense. There is nothing benevolent about Assad. He only ever cared about his own power, and when people complained about mistreatment he brutally beat them down. Acting as if the current situation of mostly facing religious fanatics has anything to do with the way the civil war started is odd to say the least. There was a broad group of people involved in the uprising, from all over the spectrum, students and workers, Assad's own military and yes, also some religious fanatics. There was no coherent group that led the effort, which is exactly what destroyed the moderate rebels in the longrun. The government could hang on somewhat due to foreign support from Russia or Iran, though it had been on the brink of destruction and couldn't try to take back the country on its own. The rebels had no such support from anyone and being a ragtag bunch of people had no way to properly organize, unlike religious fanatics (or even ISIS) which already had a structure to begin with. Not to mention the Turkish support for these groups. After years of war, the only ones left standing are those with foreign backing, or those who could draw in a lot of support from fanatics from all over the world (ISIS). At this stage it is about an authoritarian dictatorship, various religious groups that only survive with Turkish backing, the Kurds, and a collapsing ISIS. But that's not hpw the civil war started, and linking the early rebels with what is left now is nothing but a disgrace.