Will we ever be able to explain consciousness and can we duplicate it artifically?

punkbass2000 said:
I don't really understand your point.


My point is, if we accept the zero dimensions, then we are effectively accepting an immaterial "base". That excludes all materialists from that "use" of the word consciousness. For the materialists consciousness is 4-dimensional (i.e. a physical state, stored for example in the brain).
-----------------------------------------------------------------

@Perfect

From dictionary.com:

Conscious: Capable of thought, will, or perception

If you are talking only about perception, we haven't much to discuss (and the whole discussion isn't interesting). The interesting part begins when we talk about the will or the thought, and especially a certain aspect of thought - the fantasy. And then we also have the feelings.

Our current knowledge about all these is so incredibly small that it's very exaggerating to claim that you have "many" supporting evidence towards the one or the other direction. At least, you end up your phrase with the correct word: "believe".
 
Neomega said:
I think consciousness is a combination of survival instinct, biological desires, and the realization your time is limited. That and I think having the brain divided in two makes one part of your mind aware of the other, and therefore, you have self awareness.
So plants and bugs are conscious, even if their consciousness is differnt from humans? How about bacteria?
 
Birdjaguar said:
Ah... consciousness is filtered by physical things. So access to a uniform, ubiquitous consciousness could be restricted by our brains, eyes, bodies etc. and "how much" consciousness is allowed through to be processed and preceived "controlled" or limited by our bodies.

Something like that, yes. I wouldn't say that consciousness itself is limited in that sense, just how much is evident to other observers. A rock, for example, has no nervous sytem, so the conscious that pervades it is not identifiable. An amoeba is little more evident to most, and trees moreso, insects moreso, cats moreso, apes moreso and humans, perhaps, being the most obvious demonstrators of consciousness.
 
split-brain experiments are very interesting. The one hemisphere has no 'connection' with the other side. So you can do tests where one eye is covered and see how memories and knowledge is stored in the brain. Because is speech is mainly the part of one hemisphere, some knowledge will not be accessible to that hemisphere if the eye corresponding to it did not see it.

There has been so much studies done on various specific parts of the brain and how they connect. While there is a lot we don't know, most people are unaware of the vast knowledge we have accummulated.

Cognitive science (studying cognition and intelligence from various perspectives) was my main interest in grad school. I came from the computer science (artificial intelligence) perspective, but also learned some about psychology, linguistics and zoology.
 
Birdjaguar said:
Depending upon what you mean by "upgrade", it would seem that awareness of PB's zero dimensional consciousness would be improved if our body's barriers to it were lessened.

I don't know that I agree with El_Mac's train of thought, but I would be inclined to think that the death of the body would be most likely to bring one to pure consciousness, though it would then be no longer demonstrable.
 
atreas said:
My point is, if we accept the zero dimensions, then we are effectively accepting an immaterial "base". That excludes all materialists from that "use" of the word consciousness. For the materialists consciousness is 4-dimensional (i.e. a physical state, stored for example in the brain).

I'm not excluding you from anything. You can choose not participate, just as an atheist may wish to not participate in a theological discussion.
 
punkbass2000 said:
I don't know that I agree with El_Mac's train of thought, but I would be inclined to think that the death of the body would be most likely to bring one to pure consciousness, though it would then be no longer demonstrable.
Death, while common place, is not usually the preferred solution. ;) Perhaps one could start with asceticism. Or slowly count to eight. :D
 
punkbass2000 said:
I don't know that I agree with El_Mac's train of thought, but I would be inclined to think that the death of the body would be most likely to bring one to pure consciousness, though it would then be no longer demonstrable.

How do you figure? It seems that death leads to a lack of consciousness to me.
 
atreas said:
My point is, if we accept the zero dimensions, then we are effectively accepting an immaterial "base". That excludes all materialists from that "use" of the word consciousness. For the materialists consciousness is 4-dimensional (i.e. a physical state, stored for example in the brain).

From dictionary.com: Conscious: Capable of thought, will, or perception
If consciousness is four dimensional, where does it not exist, given the definition you posted.
 
warpus said:
How do you figure? It seems that death leads to a lack of consciousness to me.
Back to definitions. Without a clear definition of what you are talking about, you cannot easily talk about some subjects.
 
warpus said:
How do you figure? It seems that death leads to a lack of consciousness to me.

Well, if you want to be technical, I must restate that I don't think the idea of gaining of losing consciousness is meaningful. But without the distraction of the senses, there would be only consciousness, so I think "pure" is a reasonable term.
 
BTW, here are my two cents: I posted them before.

'nother linky

So yes, I think we'll be able to duplicate consciousness, but not artificially, that's an artificial word. :p
 
punkbass2000 said:
Well, if you want to be technical, I must restate that I don't think the idea of gaining of losing consciousness is meaningful. But without the distraction of the senses, there would be only consciousness, so I think "pure" is a reasonable term.

Death wouldn't just stop signals from the sense-centres from reaching your brain.. you'd be dead, so no consciousness at all.
 
Wait, what do you mean by an "x-dimensional" consciousness?
 
punkbass2000 said:
Well, that's what you think. Have you been following the thread?

Is experiencing full consciousness desirable? Why not suicide?

And why do you discount 'falling unconscious' from your world view? To me, it very much seems that consciousness can be lost.
 
punkbass2000 said:
I'm not excluding you from anything. You can choose not participate, just as an atheist may wish to not participate in a theological discussion.
It's very funny during the same post to have people seeing me as being both materialist and against materialism. Thank you for giving me the permission to have an opinion. I am currently searching the zero dimensional space for a convenient place to store that permission in my consciousness :).

BTW, I agree with you that, if we accept an immaterial consciousness, then death wouldn't be the end of it.

Birdjaguar said:
If consciousness is four dimensional, where does it not exist, given the definition you posted.

Sorry, but I am not qualified to answer. You see, I never told that I am a believer of materialism (in fact, I didn't say I am against materialism either).

I happen to like much more kingjoshi's position: he talks clearly from a technical point of view. From that point both perception and learning can be achieved with material means. The problem is that you still don't have consciousness that way, but surely you can emulate some sort of consciousness - at least, until we reach the domain of "feelings", "will", or "fantasy".
 
At any moment your consciousness is made up of your Ego (your sense of self, or the "I" in every sentence or behind it) your immediate thoughts, and your emotions, which are nebula of thoughts themselves.
When you feel something in reality you are instantly getting in touch with myriads of thoughts or thought particles, which make an impression to you all at once, which is why emotions can drive someone more than thoughts, since the latter are being examined consciously in the foreground of immediate consciousness.

In order to create a conscious being you would have to give it a sense of self, and then various different mental planes, which are in endless, nonconscious interaction. The means of interaction appear to be limitless. Sometimes we think that there really are rules in the way we think, but this is because the development of mankind has led to biological alterations in the brain itself. Several parts of the brain, as shown by neurophychology, deal with advanced thought process, and these also control mathematical thinking. In turn logic- both practical and more abstract- has been developed only in the last few thousants of years. Those very modern alterations (less than 5000 years old) have brought a change in the organisation of consciousness, with logic taking the place of older, animistically-based formations. However this is only a change on the surface. Below it all of the old formations are to be found, and then ofcourse those formations too were just events in an ongoing mental alteration.

the way we move inside our brain- since to think is essentially to move in your world of thought- is heavily influenced by:

a) language, and its forms. If there is no term for something it is very harder to find a notion of it, which later on would have to be crystalised into a term.

b) symbolism. The world around us contains a vast number of terms, objects, relations between objects, and meanings. The meanings themselves create allegorical parallels between them, and the brain already has calculated those.

c) drives. There exist two drives. The drive to self-preserve, and the sexual drive. They both serve biological needs. Humen are, afterall, just another type of animal, and our self-preservation could not have been guaranteed by our own intellect. Definately we can think in complicated abstract ways, or make machines which fly to other planets, but if we didnt have to be bound by drives we would most likely have killed ourselves instantly. A drive is ilogical, which is why it is ussual to see the view that if one goes against his drives that is a sign of intellect- on the other hand you have Nietzsche speaking in favour of the drives. Being ilogical, however, doesnt mean that it is anti-thought. A drive is made up from thoughts, or rather thought-particles (they are made up of innumerable interactions between the brain cells) which are tied to a general mood. A person finds it very hard to kill himself because he still has to figh the drive of self-preservation, nomatter how he disliked living. The drives probably flow from the bottom of the mental pit, which is to be expected since they were not really meant to be examined. Even today's psychology does not deal with what the drives are, but with disabling any need to go against them, by means of goings through past drama, and using also psychotropic drugs to limit ones chemical ability to produce the chemical form of negative moods.

Whereas the mind works in electro-chemical ways, that is just a translation of the mental phenomenon, in material terms, and vice-versa the mental form (thoughts, emotions etc) are a translation of the electro-chemical, in mental terms. However we couldnt just build a brain using electro-chemistry, since those chemical reactions have a specific significance to us due to the rest of our biological make. If we were a bit different then one chemical drug would cause an entirely different effect. Those drugs have, afterall, different effects for different humans anyway, although psychotropic medicine is evolving and the current drugs target specific receptors in the brain.

The phenomenon of consciousness is more complicated than any description of it. The chromosomes one inherits will enable him to evolve in one way, but in reality he will get to evolve to a very small fraction of what was possible for him. That is easy to accept, since even if the decisive moment of human evolution was constant, one would have lost track of the final stage if he simply stoped trying to better himself for one second. But ofcourse our goal is not to become better; the mind is not there so as to help us improve; the only goal that nature has for us is to remain alive, and in reality even happyness is only there so as to sustain our will to be alive.
 
Back
Top Bottom