William C Rogers III - War Criminal, Terrorist, or Incompetent?

[Glassfan]

The Vincennes Incident(3Jul88) took place during a battle between the US Cruiser and several Iranian gunboats that were caught laying mines in the Persian Gulf during the Iran-Iraq war. The US Navy was keeping the Persian Gulf open to traffic while Iranian and Iraqi forces were fighting each other and also attacking neutral shipping in the Gulf.

In the midst of the battle, the Vincennes CIC identified a plane approaching from the direction of a base known to have Iranian F-14 Tomcats stationed. The plane, unfortunately an Iranian civilian aircraft mostly carrying pilgrims to Mecca was directed into a sea-battle by Iranian air traffic control, coterminous with an IAF Base.

Keep in mind, as Captain Rogers did, that in the previous year(17Mar87) the USS Stark was attacked by an Iraqi plane in a similar incident, resulting in 37 American sailors killed.

The Iranian airbus was closing on the Vincennes while the battle raged. Several conflicting pieces of information were available, but the bottom lines were that the plane refused to identify itself and refused to turn away under warning from Vincennes. In the heat of battle, a tough decision had to be made.

It was a terrible and unfortunate accident. The US paid indemnities to the Iranian survivors, but considering that it happened during an act of Iranian beligerence, an apology would have seemed as if Iran was in the right.

 

[Berzerker]

wasnt the stark hit by an iraqi (french) missile?

 

[Glassfan]

wasnt the stark hit by an iraqi (french) missile?

Yes, and so the Vincennse would have been extra careful.

 

[Berzerker]

they weren't extra careful

 

[Glassfan]

True, they were a little distracted by being shot at.

 

[Silurian]

The Iranian airbus was closing on the Vincennes while the battle raged. Several conflicting pieces of information were available, but the bottom lines were that the plane refused to identify itself and refused to turn away under warning from Vincennes. In the heat of battle, a tough decision had to be made.
.

The Iranian airbus did identify with its IFF squawk code.

The Vincennes did not issue any warnings that included the IFF squawk code that would have allowed the Iranian airbus to know that the Vincennes was trying to contact it.

The first warning

Unknown aircraft on course 206, speed 316 position 2702N/05616E you are approaching US Naval warship request you remain clear

If the Airbus had heard this request, not warning, then how was it supposed to avoid the Vincennes since the Vincennes did not tell it where to stay away from.

The second warning was issued whilst the Airbus was talking to Tehran Area Control Centre. Vincennes second warning was also issued at the same time as one was issued on the same frequency as one from another US ship, the Side. So all that would have been heard by the Airbus would be gibberish.



The Third warning

Unknown aircraft on CSE-210, SPD-360, ALT 10,000. You are approaching USN warship BRG 201, 20 miles from you. You are standing into danger and may be subject to USN defensive measures

Again no way for the Airbus to indentify its self as the unknown aircraft

 

[Formaldehyde]

The shooting down of KAL 007 over Soviet airspace shows how truly despicable that former authoritarian regime really was.

The shooting down of IR 655 over either Iranian or international waters, while on the proper course and altitude for the flight plan which was previously filed, shows that accidents happen all the time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

In 1990, Rogers was awarded the Legion of Merit "for exceptionally meritorious conduct in the performance of outstanding service as commanding officer ... from April 1987 to May 1989."

 

[Bugfatty300]

If the Airbus had heard this request, not warning, then how was it supposed to avoid the Vincennes since the Vincennes did not tell it where to stay away from.

"you are approaching US Naval warship"

Now I'm not a pilot, or a navigational expert but I'll go out on limb here and guess that the area to be avoided would be the one that I'm presently approaching.

As for why they weren't more specific (keep in mind that I'm not a military expert either) I'd also go as far as to guess that broadcasting your exact position to a possible enemy plane, over all kinds of frequencies while in the middle of a battle wouldn't be smart thing for a warship to do.

 

[Formaldehyde]

The Vincennes was sending that message on military frequencies which the Iranian airliner could not even hear.

And even if they could have heard it, how would the commercial pilots have even know the message was directed at them, when they were doing exactly the same thing they had done numerous times in the past, while having no idea where the Vincennes was actually located?

This isn't open waters we are talking about here. It is highly congested and commercial aircraft would have been frequently flying overhead the entire time the Vincennes was in that vicinity.

 

[Silurian]

"you are approaching US Naval warship"

Now I'm not a pilot, or a navigational expert but I'll go out on limb here and guess that the area to be avoided would be the one that I'm presently approaching.

As for why they weren't more specific (keep in mind that I'm not a military expert either) I'd also go as far as to guess that broadcasting your exact position to a possible enemy plane, over all kinds of frequencies while you're in the middle of a battle wouldn't be a good idea for a warship to do.

The Iranian Airbus was flying above the coast of the large Iranian island to the south west of Bandar Abbas. The Airbus would be aware that US ships were operating out to sea but would not expect to fly over one on the Iranian coast. Therefore since the Airbus flying over the coast would not expect the US navy to be on the coast the Airbus would assume that the US navy were talking to some other aircraft.

 

[MobBoss]

@Pat- thank you for your answers. Your argument appears to be that this is an excusable mistake, simply because the situation was a difficult one. I love this quote:

Mistakes happen, yes, but so should accountability. You make the point that surgeons make mistakes too. But if one made a mistake as big as this one (or as close to this as you could get from the point of view of a surgeon), then they would likely lose their job and possibly face criminal charges. It is their responsibility to make sure that they perform their job correctly. Negligence occurs, sure, but that doesn't make it excusable. If your job is to make those three omelettes with different ingredients and you fail in doing so, then your must face the consequences. Both the task and the consequences are higher when we're talking about the military. If you don't have those consequences, how are you not just making out that the losses are tacitly acceptable?

Or said surgeon gets sued and has to pay restitution but continues on practicing medicine. In this case we paid restitution and the officer(s) got to continue serving.

Also, no one in this thread has mentioned this incident either:

Nine months after the downing of Iran Air Flight 655, on March 10, 1989, Rogers' wife Sharon escaped with her life when a pipe bomb attached to her minivan exploded, while she was driving.[36] The van was recorded in the name of Will Rogers III, and many people jumped to a conclusion and suspected that terrorism was involved. Five months later, the Associated Press reported that the most likely suspect had a personal vendetta against Capt. Rogers and that the Federal Bureau of Investigation had ruled out terrorist activity.[37] At that time pipe bombs were a common occurrence (over 200 each year) in San Diego County and a largely homegrown threat according to the local sheriff's department.[38] As of 2007, the bombing of Rogers' van remains an unsolved case, despite a major investigation involving at times up to 300 police and FBI agents.[39] On February 17, 1993, the case was featured on the TV show Unsolved Mysteries, but no additional information was uncovered.

Also, I would like to address this question in the OP:

If it was an error; then why was this incompetent man allowed to stay in the military? Not even discharged

Since when does a single error render one incompetent?

 

[Rik Meleet]

It was an unintentional unfortunate incident.

However, the fact that medals were rewarded is utterly scandalous.

 

[Formaldehyde]

The commander of a major US naval warship jumped to the incredibly absurd conclusion that he was being attacked by a single F-14, which has no real air-to-surface capabilities, and which was deliberately trying to be mistaken for a commercial jet during a time when the two countries were not even at war.

Receiving a medal for such a horrific blunder is indeed utterly scandalous as I pointed out above. And so is the fact that he is even still in any associated with the military in any capacity.

 

[Patroklos]

Who here actually works on Aegis warships and is posting from one right now? Me.

Who here has actually used the SPY-1D radar TODAY and knows the ins and outs of how it works and thus can understand the technical realities (and then explain them to you) of the situation under discussion? Me.

Who here has actually communicated with military and civilian air contacts to determine identity and knows the procedures for doing so? Me.

Who here knows how IFF works instead of just making up random imagination driven "facts" gleaned from movies? Me.

Who here knows about link architecture and the way it works (and explained it to you). Me.

If you guys are just going to continue to make up your own stories off the top of your head when you have a subject expert resource available to tell you exactly how things work I am just going to stop wasting my time typing out responses to you.

Case in point:

FORMA:The Vincennes was sending that message on military frequencies which the Iranian airliner could not even hear.

I just got done telling you, AND THE WIKI ARTICLE SAYS IT TOO, that the Vincennes made seven separate calls on military AND CIVILIAN EMERGENCY frequencies. Yet in his haste to yet again attempt a failed dog pile he deliberately leaves that out.

Was anybody going to call him out?

 

[SS-18 ICBM]

Was the airliner's black box ever recovered?

 

[Formaldehyde]

Who here actually works on Aegis warships and is posting from one right now? Me.

Appeal to authority logical fallacy?

Was anybody going to call him out?

Because I didn't read every single thing you have posted in this thread?

From the same article:

Throughout its final flight IR655 was in radio contact with various air traffic control services using standard civil aviation frequencies, and had spoken in English to Bandar Abbas Approach Control seconds before the Vincennes launched its missiles. According to the U.S. Navy investigation the Vincennes at that time had no equipment suitable for monitoring civil aviation frequencies, other than the International Air Distress frequency. Subsequently U.S. Navy warships in the area were equipped with dialable VHF radios, and access to flight plan information was sought, to better track commercial airliners.

The official ICAO report stated that ten attempts were made to contact Iran Air flight 655: seven on military frequencies and three on commercial frequencies, addressed to an "unidentified Iranian aircraft" and giving its speed as 350 knots (650 km/h), which was the ground speed of the aircraft their radar reported. The crew of the Iran Air 655, however, would have seen a speed of 300 knots (560 km/h) on their controls, which was their relative air speed, possibly leading them to conclude that the Vincennes was talking to another aircraft. Both Sides and Vincennes tried contacting flight 655 on several civilian and military frequencies.[5]

International investigations concluded that the crew of IR655 assumed that the three calls that they received before the missiles struck must have been directed at an Iranian P-3 Orion (see below).

The crew of the Vincennes Combat Information Center (CIC) confusingly reported the plane as ascending and descending at the same time (there were two "camps"). This seems to have happened because the Airbus' original Link 11 track, number 4474, had been replaced by the Sides track, number 4131, when the computer recognised them as one and the same. Shortly thereafter, track 4474 was re-assigned by the system to an American A-6, several hundred miles away, which was following a descending course at the time. Apparently not all the crew in the CIC realized the track number had been switched on them.

I think it is patently absurd to try to blame the Iranians for obvious incompetence on the part of the American commander and the crew of the Vincennes. Even if it was an F-14 instead of a commercial jet, it posed no real threat. And it is ludicrous to think that Iran would likely start a war with the US in such a stupid manner.

 

[JollyRoger]

Me.

Me.

Me.

Me.

Me.

For what it's worth, I will give you credit for giving presumably correct answers on five things brought up in this thread.

 

[SS-18 ICBM]

I think it is patently absurd to try to blame the Iranians

Routing civilian flights over a naval conflict doesn't usually end well.

 

[Patroklos]

Appeal to authority logical fallacy?

1.) You apparently have no idea what a logical fallacy is, I suggest you look it up.

2.) By definition an appeal is made to someone else. I am telling you quite factually that I am an expert in many of the things being discussed.

So tell me Forma, are you more qualified to talk about any of these things than me. Are you so enamored with your hatred of me and your own predetermined conclusions that you are unable to accept the information I am giving you as the ONLY person on these boards with any knowledge of what you are so ignorantly pontificating about?

Is my expertise threatening to you?

Because I didn't read every single thing you have posted in this thread?

If you had, then we could not attribute your blatently false postings to ignorance but rather deceit.

From the same article:

Wait a second. You said, and I quote.

"The Vincennes was sending that message on military frequencies which the Iranian airliner could not even hear."

But now you quote an article that says the US was sending that message on a civilian frequency and the Iranians heard it.

Which is it, "The Vincennes was sending that message on military frequencies which the Iranians could not hear" or did the Vincennes send it on a civilian frequency they did hear but did not act upon as you subsequent post says.

And since you claimed to have read all the posts in this thread before you posted your falsehood about the Vincennes sending it only on military frequencies which very clearly stated they sent in on military and civilain frequencies, were you lying when you made that statement?

It's alright if you say you did not read the thread and did not bother to research the incident before shooting your mouth off. It really is.

I think it is patently absurd to try to blame the Iranians for obvious incompetence on the part of the American commander and the crew of the Vincennes.

I am still waiting for you to come up with anything that is not a falsehood, irrelevant, or willful deceit to back up this position.

Even if it was an F-14 instead of a commercial jet, it posed no real threat.

You have made this claim that F-14s are no thread before. I would very much like to accuse you again pontificating from a position of ignorance, but before doing so I want you to substantiate this claim.

And it is ludicrous to think that Iran would likely start a war with the US in such a stupid manner.

I would agree with you. The problem is that Iran had already attacked the US that day, they had already likely started a war in such a stupid manner.

 

[JollyRoger]

Is my expertise threatening to you?

Only when he's taking a commercial flight.