Windows 8

[Archbob]

No, I can type faster than any human being can move the mouse and click.

And if you can't remember the program name, and have more things than fit on the start screen, it's going to take you like a minute to read through all your start menu programs anyway.

And really, I'm not convinced that your "person who doesn't know the names of programs they use" actually exists in any significant number.

You still have to hit the keyboard to bring up the search menu. I know where I'm going to double click on my start screen. Your not going to save yourself any time. Optimal for you maybe, but not optimal for most people. I mostly use the icons on my desktop, for some program I will use the start menu, but its just as fast as typing. Your such a fanboy.

 

[Zelig]

You still have to hit the keyboard to bring up the search menu. I know where I'm going to double click on my start screen. Your not going to save yourself any time. Optimal for you maybe, but not optimal for most people. I mostly use the icons on my desktop, for some program I will use the start menu, but its just as fast as typing. Your such a fanboy.

I don't really care about catering people who can't type and they'd probably be better off with touchscreens anyway.

I comfortably type at sustained speeds over 100 wpm, but if you we use 100 wpm as a nice round number, that gives me 500 characters per minute.

I can open any program on my computer in 4 characters of search, so 6 characters total, with the windows key and enter. Total time of .72 seconds to open any program.

You can probably move the mouse quickly into the corner in a quarter of a second (though not for power users on Windows 7, since you don't have sticky corners, so moving the mouse quickly to the corner will just see it fly onto the next monitor, but I'll assume 0.25 seconds for your benefit.) You're then presented with a list of recent programs, which will be the same as what's on your taskbar, so completely useless, so another .25 seconds to move to "all programs". Now since you keep complaining that the start screen isn't dense enough, presumably you have at least 60 items on your start menu, assuming you're wicked fast at speedreading (1000 wpm) and each folder/program has an average of 1.5 words, that's an average of 2.7 seconds to find the program/folder you're looking for. Say your things are evenly divided between programs and single-depth folders, so 50/50 split of an extra .25 seconds to move the mouse to a program, or .25+.10 (because it's close, and you're super speedy) to move to a folder and then a program. (So average .3) Oh, and an extra .6 seconds for all the clicks, based on the testing I just did of maximum clicking speed. That puts you at 4.1 seconds to open a program, with pretty much every assumption made in your favour, or over five times slower than typing.

Again, I don't even use Windows as my primary OS, I'm typing this on Mac OS.

 

[Archbob]

You have to bring up the search first of all before you type any characters. I don't have to speed read, I'm very used to my icon screen. I know precisely where everything is, so your calculations about time is nothing except gibberish. I've opened most of them enough times so I remember their positions. Remembering their positions on my start screen is a lot easier that remembering their names.

Most people aren't power users and aren't that efficient at remembering, bringing up the search, and typing the program name. You represent a very small percentage of the computer-using population. I don't have to move to an folder, I have shortcut icons on my desktop. The blocky ones for windows are are unwieldy and plain suck. Most people just double click on a small icon on a screen. No one really wants to use a touchscreen on a laptop or desktop, because of the distance and lack of precision of finger tap. its not that practical to tap the screen on a desktop for hours during a workday. Its just better with a mouse. MS default windows 8 interface is just not good for the traditional desktop/laptop no matter how hard you spin it.

Even most of the power users from the review sites who say they "like" Windows 8 have added start shell or something else to add a start button and make the default boot look like Win 7. They seem to love it so much that much said "screw it" and made it look like Win 7. No one is using this new interface, it was a total mistake to make it the default.

 

[Iranon]

I'm not aware of a single good clicky (as opposed to typey) way of launching applications.



Some environments have a plain hierarchical main menu. Sparse and not user friendly.

Let's enable us to keep often-used favourites on the top level instead of buried in some vendor/application type hierarchy.

Hmm, that clutters up our menu, and we don't need a menu if we know what we want. Let's put the favourites on the desktop.

Annoyingly, desktop icons are often covered by application windows. Let's put them somewhere out of the way but easily accessible. Depending on preferences or OS conventions, this could be a dock/panel, a home screen/launcher or both.

Drat, those get cluttered too quickly too. Let's group things that belong together.

We're back to hierarchical menus. Only weird, awkwardly sized and limited ones.



Unless someone comes up with something new and brilliant, we have nothing that fits everyone. Several (individually unsatisfying) options may be needed, but too many make a GUI feel unfocused.

Least bad option for me is no desktop furniture at all with a simple, compact menu grouped by application type, available by clicking on the desktop (1-pixel margins counting as empty desktop even when covered).

 

[NBAfan]

This is just plain stupid. Double clicking a start icon or bring up the start menu is just as fast or faster and bringing up search and searching for a program name and it doesn't make you remember your program name. Sub-optimal. Yeah, whatever.

Which is why you pin stuff to your Start Screen in 8.
What I have done with mine is get rid of all the apps, and just pinned all the programs I would use to the front screen. Fast and no typing.

 

[Zelig]

You have to bring up the search first of all before you type any characters. I don't have to speed read, I'm very used to my icon screen. I know precisely where everything is, so your calculations about time is nothing except gibberish. I've opened most of them enough times so I remember their positions. Remembering their positions on my start screen is a lot easier that remembering their names.

Most people aren't power users and aren't that efficient at remembering, bringing up the search, and typing the program name. You represent a very small percentage of the computer-using population. I don't have to move to an folder, I have shortcut icons on my desktop. The blocky ones for windows are are unwieldy and plain suck. Most people just double click on a small icon on a screen. No one really wants to use a touchscreen on a laptop or desktop, because of the distance and lack of precision of finger tap. its not that practical to tap the screen on a desktop for hours during a workday. Its just better with a mouse. MS default windows 8 interface is just not good for the traditional desktop/laptop no matter how hard you spin it.

Even most of the power users from the review sites who say they "like" Windows 8 have added start shell or something else to add a start button and make the default boot look like Win 7. They seem to love it so much that much said "screw it" and made it look like Win 7. No one is using this new interface, it was a total mistake to make it the default.

I covered bringing up the search, that's one of the characters.

Even if you know exactly where every single icon is and can move the mouse there with your eyes closed (which you can't), it's still several times slower than typing.

If people aren't power users, they're going to be even slower at clicking than the best-case scenario I presented.

Your anecdotes about power users aren't in line with reality.

I'm not aware of a single good clicky (as opposed to typey) way of launching applications.

I feel like if you account for mice having scroll wheels, you could make something good with some type of radial menu, full-screen and max one level of hierarchy.

Basically something like alt+tab, so that you hold down the keyboard key, either move the mouse or scroll to where you want, click if it's a folder, release the keyboard key, when you get to the item you want.

Which is why you pin stuff to your Start Screen in 8.
What I have done with mine is get rid of all the apps, and just pinned all the programs I would use to the front screen. Fast and no typing.

How do you open all your apps when you don't remember their names or icons?

 

[cardgame]

I don't really care about catering people who can't type and they'd probably be better off with touchscreens anyway.

I comfortably type at sustained speeds over 100 wpm, but if you we use 100 wpm as a nice round number, that gives me 500 characters per minute.

I can open any program on my computer in 4 characters of search, so 6 characters total, with the windows key and enter. Total time of .72 seconds to open any program.

Again, I don't even use Windows as my primary OS, I'm typing this on Mac OS.

So you don't use the dock, or have anything on your desktop, right? You just cmd+space everything. Everything.

 

[Zelig]

So you don't use the dock, or have anything on your desktop, right? You just cmd+space everything. Everything.

Desktop is my downloads location, so everything there is temporary and when I see stuff it reminds me I need to get rid of it.

Dock I have hidden on the left side of my leftmost monitor, and is full of default programs I've never opened on this computer (launchpad, mission control, mail, calendar, reminders, notes , messages, facetime, photo booth, iphoto, itunes - I actually had to mouse over all of these because I had no idea what the icons were for.)

I actually ctrl+space everything, I use Quicksilver, never Spotlight.

I also have all my internet searches tied into Quicksilver, so I don't need to open a browser to search - g space searchterm searches Google, i for Google images, a for Wolfram Alpha, b for Bing, w for wikipedia.

 

[Zack]

I rarely open a program that isn't pinned to my taskbar, and I've always found the Start Menu in Windows 7 to be slow and clunky, not to mention the quick access menu is filled with useless crap I never use (e.g. sticky notes).

 

[Iranon]

I feel like if you account for mice having scroll wheels, you could make something good with some type of radial menu, full-screen and max one level of hierarchy.

Basically something like alt+tab, so that you hold down the keyboard key, either move the mouse or scroll to where you want, click if it's a folder, release the keyboard key, when you get to the item you want.

Popup next hierarchy on hover has the advantage of being spatially intuitive, as long as it happens quick enough to get to the destination in a single fluid movement without much deliberation and the hierarchies are sane.
I've liked the scrollwheel on simple non-hierarchical menus though, so you may be on to something... added click on hierarchy title to open the submenu under the pointer.

Doubt I'd be too keen on this being circular or fullscreen though. I don't like unnecessary eye movements more than unnecessary mouse movements so I keep things "as small as practical". Circular sounds cute but would probably quickly overstay its welcome and be detrimental to getting the whole picture at a glance.

 

[Zelig]

Onenote on Win8 pulls off good looking radial menus which are pretty functional on touch, I haven't used them with mouse/keyboard: http://www.theverge.com/2012/7/17/3164273/onenote-windows-8-radial-menu-hands-on-video

I wasn't necessarily thinking of having information dense area be fullscreen, but the active area, so if you had a radial menu you could optionally whip around around the outside with whatever control device without worrying about being precise in the middle.

I'm really just spitballing here though.

 

[Zack]

Speaking of which, Office 2013 was released today.

 

[Zack]

So I finally got Windows 8. Some thoughts:

• I usually just skip over the start screen*, but if I want to check the weather or sports scores it's convenient and organized. I also feel like the search is slightly improved from the Start Menu.
• I like that the Start Menu icon no longer hogs up space on my taskbar.
• I like the hot corners / charms bar.
• I like the faster boot time.
• I think the desktop looks better than Aero.
• Other than that, it's basically Windows 7.

*For reference, this is what my start screen looks like.

 

[Zelig]

Speaking of which, Office 2013 was released today.

I signed up for Office 365 Home Premium for Office 2011 Mac and the bonus Skydrive space, I'll be installing 2013 from my subscription on my family's PCs in a couple weeks.

 

[Tommy Vercetti]

They need to get rid of Metro UI or whatever they are calling it when they make Windows 9. Keep the traditional desktop and start menu and scrap that Metro crap. Almost no one likes Metro.

 

[Zack]

I signed up for Office 365 Home Premium for Office 2011 Mac and the bonus Skydrive space, I'll be installing 2013 from my subscription on my family's PCs in a couple weeks.

My impression of my limited use of it so far is "meh". Hardly anything changed.

 

[Zelig]

They need to get rid of Metro UI or whatever they are calling it when they make Windows 9. Keep the traditional desktop and start menu and scrap that Metro crap. Almost no one likes Metro.

Why would they get rid of optional features that add incredible utility?

My impression of my limited use of it so far is "meh". Hardly anything changed.

Outlook and Excel both look to have some nice improvements. Word looks nicer, but I'm pretty happy with it feature-wise.

 

[Zack]

Oh, I certainly think it's an improvement, but I don't think it's substantial enough to warrant buying it for $130 (I upgraded for free because I bought 2010 fairly recently).

 

[Zelig]

Probably not, if you're on 2010 already.

Most users should be able to get better deals than $130 for Office Home and Student though.

2013 Home and Student works out to $43.3/computer/year (3-year upgrade cycles) upgrades) 365 University is $10/computer/year (2 computers) or $20/year (1 computer) and 365 Home Premium is $20/computer/year (5 computers), $25 (4), $33 (3), $50 (2). The 365 subs all come with Outlook/Publisher/Access, which H&S doesn't.

Many companies have an Office Home Use program which give you Office Professional Plus for $11.

 

[cardgame]

I'm on 2011

Did they rebrand the year for the same product, ported to OSX?