Windows 8

[bhsup]

It's not the desktop? Also, it may not be a metro app in and of itself, but it is the metro UI.

 

[Archbob]

I'm glad to see you still failed to come up with a single actual problem with booting to the start screen by default.

People have, you just refuse to acknowledge them. Not booting into the environment most people prefer is really stupid, but see you somehow want to defend this decision. That's more important than a 4 second decrease in boot time. The actual usage numbers of Win 8 a month after launch are really disappointing for MS and consumer holiday sales are also really down if you look at reports. People don't like it, they want the old OS look by default. The default UI for consumers is gonna be one of the most important things for an OS and this one sucks. The default apps launched are the metro version apps, which suck. The only answer to this that all these win 8 users give me is that "just go to desktop mode, you'll spend like 99% of your time in it anyways". If no one on desktop uses the new UI, why bother booting into it by default on desktop machines?

 

[Zelig]

People have, you just refuse to acknowledge them. Not booting into the environment most people prefer is really stupid, but see you somehow want to defend this decision. That's more important than a 4 second decrease in boot time. The actual usage numbers of Win 8 a month after launch are really disappointing for MS and consumer holiday sales are also really down if you look at reports. People don't like it, they want the old OS look by default. The default UI for consumers is gonna be one of the most important things for an OS and this one sucks. The default apps launched are the metro version apps, which suck. The only answer to this that all these win 8 users give me is that "just go to desktop mode, you'll spend like 99% of your time in it anyways". If no one on desktop uses the new UI, why bother booting into it by default on desktop machines?

I acknowledge all legitimate points, you haven't made any.

Identify a use case which works better when booting to the desktop.

 

[Archbob]

I acknowledge all legitimate points, you haven't made any.

Identify a use case which works better when booting to the desktop.

Easy, desktop icons are less cluttered than the blocks. I have a lot of icons I put on my desktop that I often use, if they were in block format, it'd fill up the entire screen and maybe plus some. Double clicking an icon is faster than typing in a name and searching.

The new UI has a lot of advertising people have complained about that points you to the store. People without touchscreen in general have found it less usable. Most people simply like the look of the old UI much better than this piece of crap for desktops.

 

[Zelig]

Easy, desktop icons are less cluttered than the blocks. I have a lot of icons I put on my desktop that I often use, if they were in block format, it'd fill up the entire screen and maybe plus some. Double clicking an icon is faster than typing in a name and searching.

The new UI has a lot of advertising people have complained about that points you to the store. People without touchscreen in general have found it less usable. Most people simply like the look of the old UI much better than this piece of crap for desktops.

You haven't mentioned a use case yet.

Most people who've tried Windows 8 for a while think it's great, because they realize it does everything Windows 7 does, plus more.

 

[Archbob]

You haven't mentioned a use case yet.

Most people who've tried Windows 8 for a while think it's great, because they realize it does everything Windows 7 does, plus more.

Yeah, I have, it doesn't display my program icons as well as Win 7 and its messy. I don't know what reviews your reading but most non-power users hate it. Even power users at best are split 50/50. And the main complaint is the interface and the fact that Metro and not desktop app launch by default on the desktop machines. Hottest selling items on black Friday for tech stores where computers with Win 7 on them, not Win 8 ones, no one wants Win 8.

Most advice columns tell non-tablet users to avoid the Metro UI as much as possible. So why default to it in the first place? There isn't any good reason to.

 

[Zelig]

Looking at icons isn't a use case: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_case

Most non-power users like Windows 8.

There isn't any good reason to default to the desktop, though it's trivially easy to change the default.

 

[Archbob]

Looking at icons isn't a use case: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_case

Most non-power users like Windows 8.

There isn't any good reason to default to the desktop, though it's trivially easy to change the default.

Obviously, thats why adoption and usage has been more along the vista lines instead of win 7/xp lines. Thats why black friday and holiday sales are disappointing. Yeah, people totally love it. Thats why even people who claim to like it for desktop spend the vast majority of their time in the old "desktop" UI instead of this new Metro UI that they "love". There's also a lack of the sleep/hibernate/shutdown in desktop mode and its really stupidly place in the default mode.

Also the metro version of IE and the desktop version of IE do not share cookies or sessions, which is beyond stupid. Launching the metro version of apps on a desktop environment is beyond stupid in itself.

The fact that desktop looks better and is less cluttered for a desktop system is reason enough to default boot to desktop.

The visual of Metro just totally sucks and looks messy.

 

[Zelig]

Almost everyone agrees that Metro looks great, and that the metro-ification of the Desktop is also an improvement over Aero.

Tom's Hardware:

"I have no trouble admitting that I started this story very bearish on Windows 8. But as I went, exploring each of the operating system's features, I grew to like it more and more. For all of the reasons covered in the preceding 13 500 words, we're giving Windows 8 Tom's Hardware Recommended Buy award.

Although a missing Start menu is scaring off many power users, the fact is that Windows 8 does everything Windows 7 does, plus some."

The Verge:

"Windows 8 is a beautiful operating system and one that feels incredibly personal once it’s customized."

Wired:

"I’ve been testing Windows 8 over the last few months, and I’ve come to really enjoy using it. Yes, it took a lot of re-learning and adjustment. Yes, I felt lost and baffled at first. And sure, I was a bit sad to see the Start Menu vanish. (There are others who feel the same way and have solutions.) Several small annoyances remain for Microsoft to work out. But if you’re willing to put in a little bit of initial effort to learn the ropes, Windows 8 is definitely worth the upgrade."

ZDNet:

"ZDNet did an quick scan of online reviews posted on the Home Shopping Network to get a glimpse at how normal people were taking to Windows 8 and found that “nearly 1 in 4 reviewers made a special point to single out Windows 8 for praise” while just 14% of reviewers singled out Windows 8 for criticism."

TechRadar:

"But touchscreen or mouse, Windows 8 undeniably shines. The final desktop look makes the transition between the Modern UI and desktop less obvious. You can still stay substantially in the desktop if you want to and enjoy a faster, more secure version of Windows with a better browser that has longer battery life.

But as more useful Modern UI apps come along, you'll find you split your time between the two experiences more, and gestures could be critical to making that a natural combination.

Keep an open mind, spend some time getting used to the charm bar and the Start screen. Once you do, we defy you not to be impressed by Windows 8."

The Guardian:

"So for Microsoft, Windows 8 is a huge leap forward – and yet it's doing it while holding all the baggage of the "old" Windows going back decades. Expect some cries of pain in the weeks and months to come as people adjust. However, viewed more broadly, it couldn't do anything else: the desktop paradigm is getting tired, and the tiles approach is fresh and quickly becomes intuitive. In a few years, taking a trip down to the Morlocks' level may feel like a fleeting visit to a long-forgotten friend: so much to talk about, but much more important things to do elsewhere."

 

[Mr.WorldWide]

I wonder why Windows doesn't use the 24hr clock by default.

Several posts later...

I don't like the default wallpaper.

You compare the complaint of no default boot to desktop with far more trivial stuff. It's like comparing apples to oranges, wallpaper is in a whole different category then boot to desktop. Oh, and all those glowing reviews you posted above for Windows 8 were probably written either by M$ fanbois or reviewers paid off by M$. I wish I could spend a day in your fuzzy little world.

Anyways, we live in hope that when M$ releases SP1 for Windows 8 they will make some drastic changes for PC consumers.

 

[Archbob]

Another interested comparison by Zdnet by people who have used Win 8 for a while:

http://www.zdnet.com/dogfooding-windows-8-six-long-term-windows-8-users-tell-all-7000007850/

Of the 6 reviewers, only one with a touchscreen said they didn't miss the old win 7 start screen and 3 of them installed start8 to make their desktop look like Win 7.

Half of them still recommend Win 7 on a new machine and the majority of them tweak it to look basically like Win 7. Sure, the majority like the new UI so much that they don't actually use it.

 

[Mise]

You compare the complaint of no default boot to desktop with far more trivial stuff.

No, he's saying that it's just as trivial. Which it is. All this fuss over such a tiny little thing

Regular Person: "What happened to the X?"
Zelig: "Nothing, you just have to Y first now."
Regular Person: "Oh, okay."

And move on with your life....


Contrast with what's happened in this thread:

Annoying nerd on the internet: "What happened to the X?"
Zelig: "Nothing, you just have to Y first now."
ANOTI: "WHAAAAAT??!?!?!?! THIS IS AN OUTRAGE!!! I SHOULDN'T HAVE TO DO THIS EVERY SINGLE TIME I START MY COMPUTER!!!!"
Zelig: "You can set a task scheduler job to do it for you. And you shouldn't be restarting your computer much anyway, because the sleep mode is virtually the same as turning it off nowadays."
ANOTI: "Nooooo I shouldn't have to why do they change things WHY WHY WHY why can't they keep things the way that I'm used to I don't want to have to learn a new thing I hate learning new things I'm old and crap at computers well no I'm not old and crap at computers but people who are old and crap at computers will be confuuuuuuuused by this UNNECESSARY CHANGE raaaaaaaaaah change I liked it the way it was before when I had the desktop and not this new fangled metro UI nonsense give me the old way the old way is better no wait I mean not for me because I'm good at computers and I know how to use what did you say task scheduler yeah I schedule tasks all the time because I'm not crap at computers and I really love new technology and stuff so it's not so bad for me but for the REGULAR PEOPLE who are going to be confuuuuuuuused by it Microsoft is really screwing things up a lot because they want more money because they are greedy and don't care about REGULAR PEOPLE like me I mean not like me I'm not old and crap at computers but the people who are will be confused"
Zelig: "Actually the regular user just said 'Oh, okay', and got on with it."
ANOTI: "NO you are a liar EVERYBODY KNOWS that windows 8 is crap and windows 7 was the best, just like windows xp was the best xp ever because that was the version of windows that I used to use when I came of age computer-wise."
Zelig: "Actually reviews have been positive and uptake is pretty much solely determined by sales of new PCs."
ANOTI: "Yeah, okay, so those 6 links you gave, they don't mean anything because there were some other random guys who reviewed it and said that it was crap SO THERE I'M RIGHT EVERYBODY HATES WINDOWS 8 BECAUSE IT'S STUPID AND THE OLD WAYS ARE THE BEST."

 

[sophie]

No, he's saying that it's just as trivial. Which it is. All this fuss over such a tiny little thing

Honestly, all this fuss over hitting the enter button once a month.

 

[Iranon]

Assessments of what's obnoxious, and what's trivial to change seem to differ wildly.

I agree that some things FAL complains about are obnoxious, but the important ones are trivial to change.
The remaining ones are defensible in the big picture - while shared interface elements (start screen, charms bar) clash with the desktop aesthetically, that's less bad than even more useless duplication.

Zelig dismissed them out of hand, but condemned the entirety of desktop Linux for being ugly earlier in the thread... which pretty much amounts to complaining about the wallpaper given choice of UIs and easy configurability of some.

*

One thing to remember is that a pleasant user experience isn't planned for the unwashed masses:
http://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msstore/html/pbPage.MicrosoftSignature

 

[Zelig]

Several posts later...



You compare the complaint of no default boot to desktop with far more trivial stuff. It's like comparing apples to oranges, wallpaper is in a whole different category then boot to desktop. Oh, and all those glowing reviews you posted above for Windows 8 were probably written either by M$ fanbois or reviewers paid off by M$. I wish I could spend a day in your fuzzy little world.

Anyways, we live in hope that when M$ releases SP1 for Windows 8 they will make some drastic changes for PC consumers.

24hr clock and wallpaper are equally trivial as booting with the start screen open.

Suggesting some of those outlets are paid off by MS is pretty absurd, The Verge is notoriously negative on MS, and still gave Windows 8 a fantastic review.

Another interested comparison by Zdnet by people who have used Win 8 for a while:

http://www.zdnet.com/dogfooding-windows-8-six-long-term-windows-8-users-tell-all-7000007850/

Of the 6 reviewers, only one with a touchscreen said they didn't miss the old win 7 start screen and 3 of them installed start8 to make their desktop look like Win 7.

Half of them still recommend Win 7 on a new machine and the majority of them tweak it to look basically like Win 7. Sure, the majority like the new UI so much that they don't actually use it.

Did you even read that? Only two of the five prefer Widows 7.

And really, I'd prefer to discuss actual points about the Windows 8 software, rather than looking up things to counter EVERYONE HATES WINDOWS 8 EVERYTHING SUCKS I HATE CHANGE

Zelig dismissed them out of hand, but condemned the entirety of desktop Linux for being ugly earlier in the thread... which pretty much amounts to complaining about the wallpaper given choice of UIs and easy configurability of some.

It's not that easy, I use Linux on a daily basis, and I'd be thrilled if someone could point me at a way that I could set it up that would result in high-quality type everywhere, and the entire interface being comprised of high-quality vectors. (Vectors not necessary per se, but I need stuff to look good on my 2880x1800 screen, most Linux icons look like something a programmer would make mucking around in GIMP, not something a good designer would make.)

 

[Zelig]

I got an email today from balmer@microsoft.com:

Windows 8 is a lousy Operating System. Its supposed improved performance and claims of improved battery life are exaggerrated, Windows Store is a shameless attempt to pump people for money, and the user interface changes decrease productivity. It is a poor product created for the sake of getting money from your pockets into theirs while offering you as little value as possible. Security is not much different - most exploits and malware that work for earlier Windows versions will still work on Windows 8. One thing that might not work well on it is you, because they switched the interface around so that you have new computer skills to learn. It doesn't really matter whether you want to buy it anyway, because sooner or later it will probably be forced on you by hardware manufacturers.

Windows 8 is a shameless marketing ploy, introduced just in time for the "holiday shopping season", which is another big scam. There is nothing "Holy" about it, because "Christmas" is a big lie.

Excerpts from [url redacted]

"Xmas has absolutely nothing to do with God. It was originally called Yuletide, which is a pagan festival from the Babylonian Mystery religion of SUN worship. The Babylonians were merchants (they were the originators of the "Market-system" which is condemned by God) and they used Yuletide to sell their merchandise because, like today, it made them lots of money."

"SANTA CLAUS is an anagram for SATAN."

"The fact that the three kings came to pay homage, and brought gifts of great wealth, was used by Satan to give, to those who perverted the teaching, the idea to continue and even increase the sales of their merchandise (a great marketing-exercise for them). So the virgin-birth was hijacked and corrupted into a time to make lots of money, using the ultimate in "high-pressure sales techniques", which was to falsely use God's Son's name, in order to embarass people, who couldn't afford to buy gifts, to go into debt or steal in order to buy their merchandise. By doing this the rich merchants ruin the lives of the poor, driving them further into debt and poverty or crime, whilst making themselves richer and richer."

Do you want to give more of your hard-earned money to an opulent mega-corporation? Do you want to serve satan? Don't fall for the cheap con-artist tricks of the Windows peddlers.

 

[Archbob]

Did you even read that? Only two of the five prefer Widows 7.

Actually 3 of the 6 prefer 7, 2 of the six recommend it on a new machine(1 of the six dual boots). Out of the 3 not using touch, 2 of them recommend Win 7 on a new machine and has it as preferred. I think your the one that didn't read the article. And 5 out of the six configured Windows 8 to look like Windows 7 instead of this crappy new UI. Yes, they like the new UI so much that they chose to get rid of it as the first thing they did.

 

[Zelig]

Actually 3 of the 6 prefer 7, 2 of the six recommend it on a new machine(1 of the six dual boots). Out of the 3 not using touch, 2 of them recommend Win 7 on a new machine and has it as preferred. I think your the one that didn't read the article. And 5 out of the six configured Windows 8 to look like Windows 7 instead of this crappy new UI. Yes, they like the new UI so much that they chose to get rid of it as the first thing they did.

Oh, I made a mistake reading there.

Ah well, doesn't change anything, you're still unable to actually point out anything that Windows 8 does worse than Windows 7.

 

[Archbob]

Oh, I made a mistake reading there.

Ah well, doesn't change anything, you're still unable to actually point out anything that Windows 8 does worse than Windows 7.

I've pointed out plenty of things, you just refuse to acknowledge them.
A crappy wallpaper does not effect the running of programs. Launch programs in metro mode by default does. It makes some programs crippled on default launch. Metro programs and desktop programs(at least IE) don't share sessions or cookies which makes switching between the 2 a major problem. Its far better to default to desktop.

 

[Zelig]

No, you haven't pointed out any things that I haven't acknowledged.

Acknowledgement: You don't boot to the desktop by default.

Point: It doesn't matter, because this results in pushing enter once per month, and you can do almost anything you'd do from the desktop just as well from the start screen.