"Wokeist" - When people talk about progressivism without acquaintance

[Samson]

I think that was heavily influenced by the pandemic, which is obviously the largest confounding variable I've hand-waved away on CFC.

But the lack of productivity was startling, especially since so many of them were proponents of massive UBI.

Are complaining that people who were furloughed over the pandemic did not all start productive businesses from home?

 

[Gorbles]

I think that was heavily influenced by the pandemic, which is obviously the largest confounding variable I've hand-waved away on CFC.

But the lack of productivity was startling, especially since so many of them were proponents of massive UBI.

Getting slightly off-topic, as you only included it anecdotally, but I'd like to know how it was controlled, what holidays (if any) many of them were used to, how long the experiment continued for, and so on. I would, personally, expect a significant to extreme drop-off at the start, only to recover over time. But "time" would be a longer stretch than I would guess the experiment ran for, plus this is the in middle of a pandemic where options were limited by default.

 

[Narz]

I get the whole "satisfaction from putting the effort in", but the reality is doing that down the whole supply chain would require a whole bunch of time I literally don't have

The fact that something like having time to do basic things like cooking food is considered a luxery doesn't speak well for our society.

I think that was heavily influenced by the pandemic, which is obviously the largest confounding variable I've hand-waved away on CFC.

But the lack of productivity was startling, especially since so many of them were proponents of massive UBI.

UBI and what you've described are different tho. UBI is a supplement to work not paying people not to work.

Also paying a large swath of people not to work and the excuse of the pandemic takes away some of the social stigma of not working. And lastly, while I'd reckon most people want to be productive how productive is variable. For me I'd say 15-20 hours a week feels about right. Unless you really like your job (or don't like your home life) I don't imagine most people want to work 50, 60, 70+ hours a week

 

[Gorbles]

The fact that something like having time to do basic things like cooking food is considered a luxery doesn't speak well for our society.

Cooking fancy food absolutely should be. Cooking whatever I put on the plate for a balanced-enough meal for the family is different. A lot less prep involved. A lot less interesting food as a result, but the goal is get nutrients into kids at regular enough times for obvious and understandable growing reasons.

But growing the food is something else, right? That's what I mean by the supply chain. I would mean having an allotment, growing my own veg, growing my own herbs, etc. My parents grow veg! Herbs too. Sometimes rhubarb. But nearly all of their children have left home, and the one that's left doesn't need to be watched or told not to eat the garden. That by itself is a lot more free time, even with what they have to do to run the restaurant. And that's without even getting onto livestock. This kind of supply chain thing is why we have stuff like farms in the first place.

Am I making sense? I don't know if we're still on the same track yet or not, sorry.

 

[Hygro]

I think that was heavily influenced by the pandemic, which is obviously the largest confounding variable I've hand-waved away on CFC.

But the lack of productivity was startling, especially since so many of them were proponents of massive UBI.

I took that money, learned to code, and changed my (aka got a) career. Others I know did similarly.

You guys don't feel a persistent sense of insecurity due to being utterly dependent on supply chains and skills you know nothing about?

No computer programmer could make a computer from scratch, without components made by someone else not to mention operating systems and electricity.

The basket weaver gets his/her reeds or whatever and makes the basket. Of course you still gotta worry about wild animals eating your reeds (or you), other people taking over your prime basket materials spots, etc.

I would think basket weaving would get awfully boring but having even a modicum of self-sufficiency seems that it would do wonders for one's mental health.

When my depression is up, sure. When I smoke weed and get paranoid, sure. But you go to the third world and realize you can wake up and be ready to be useful even if "your skill" isn't in demand. You can go to DIY desert parties and see you just need a generator and some leftover gear and you still have 1,000 people dancing.

That basket weaver isn't feeding themself in any event. Do what you can to a) prevent collapse and b) disincentivize collapse by doing well for others in the current world.

 

[Lexicus]

The fact that something like having time to do basic things like cooking food is considered a luxery doesn't speak well for our society.

Having a significant % of the population obliged to do subsistence farming would not be an improvement

 

[El_Machinae]

Are complaining that people who were furloughed over the pandemic did not all start productive businesses from home?

No, I am not. I have a broad range of what I'd consider 'productive', especially if I was measuring the urge to be productive. The supposed benefits of (large) UBI will be ephemerals, not measured with dollars.

But it was lower than expected.

It was often only a few months, but many times was 'many' months.

UBI and what you've described are different tho. UBI is a supplement to work not paying people not to work.

Some UBI proposals, in the heads of their advocates, is that the supplement would be sufficient such that they not *need* to work, and thus would liberate other opportunities.

Of course, I saw some people take advantage. Just fewer than expected

 

[Gorbles]

It was often only a few months, but many times was 'many' months.

Yeah, I'm not sure aggregating them like that is the best measurement, either.

 

[Farm Boy]

Ah, Gulliver in the land of horses observing the humans.

Nobles were violent louts, and hilariously, considering, that was nurture not nature.

 

[El_Machinae]

Yeah, I'm not sure aggregating them like that is the best measurement, either.

For sure. But we have too few natural experiments. Especially ones at scale that would measure actual inflation or capital flight.

We could consider the alternative outcome, where people's instincts caused an 'impressive' result. That would have been points in the win column. And if I'd count something with one outcome, then I have to count it with the other. Or else it's cherry picking.

 

[Narz]

But growing the food is something else, right? That's what I mean by the supply chain. I would mean having an allotment, growing my own veg, growing my own herbs, etc. My parents grow veg! Herbs too. Sometimes rhubarb. But nearly all of their children have left home, and the one that's left doesn't need to be watched or told not to eat the garden. That by itself is a lot more free time, even with what they have to do to run the restaurant. And that's without even getting onto livestock. This kind of supply chain thing is why we have stuff like farms in the first place.

I'm not saying everyone should have their own garden but it's nice to be able to have the opinion to get local fresh food.

You can go to DIY desert parties and see you just need a generator and some leftover gear and you still have 1,000 people dancing.

I used to think burning man was stupid but I'm kinda curious about it now

 

[Synobun]

As a bit of an aside, we experimented with removing work from income during covid-19 up here in Canada. We paid some people very generously to not work. Obviously, it's not a perfect experiment, but it's an experiment.

At the completely anecdotal level, I was unimpressed with the results it came to people's choices. Their urge for productivity plummeted. Their output didn't match their consumption using any reasonable metric. Further, I didn't notice enough effort to change that.

Dude, what? We weren't allowed to go anywhere during those months. It was lockdowns, healthcare system collapse, global uncertainty, product scarcity, and a labour market that was revving up to increase exploitation even further. You're unimpressed that people didn't collectively turn into entrepreneurial wunderkinds? This makes no sense. Why would you even use this "experiment" as a data point for human productivity? Not only were these people expected to NOT be productive, they couldn't be that even if they wanted to be.

 

[Narz]

Having a significant % of the population obliged to do subsistence farming would not be an improvement

Again no one said anything about obliged.

Maybe tax credits for having home gardens instead of lawns.

 

[Lexicus]

Again no one said anything about obliged.

Maybe tax credits for having home gardens instead of lawns.

Tax credits for having home gardens still leave us dependent on a lot of people & things we know nothing about

 

[El_Machinae]

Dude, what? We weren't allowed to go anywhere during those months. It was lockdowns, healthcare system collapse, global uncertainty, product scarcity, and a labour market that was revving up to increase exploitation even further. You're unimpressed that people didn't collectively turn into entrepreneurial wunderkinds? This makes no sense. Why would you even use this "experiment" as a data point for human productivity? Not only were these people expected to NOT be productive, they couldn't be that even if they wanted to be.

Because it was a natural experiment, it delivers information that we didn't have before. Like I said, if the results have been different, we would have counted them.

Reading into my statement as if I expected people to be entrepreneurial wunderkins is going to be a strawman observation, which I guess is doubly useless with regards to this natural experiment.

Many of the national basic income proposals are very aggressive, so being aggressive with proactive data collection is warranted

 

[Synobun]

Because it was a natural experiment, it delivers information that we didn't have before. Like I said, if the results have been different, we would have counted them.

Reading into my statement as if I expected people to be entrepreneurial wunderkins is going to be a strawman observation, which I guess is doubly useless with regards to this natural experiment.

Many of the national basic income proposals are very aggressive, so being aggressive with proactive data collection is warranted

Why not look at real experiments that don't take place in the middle of a global crisis?

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/basic-income-mcmaster-report-1.5485729

Participants in Ontario's prematurely cancelled basic income pilot project were happier, healthier and continued working even though they were receiving money with no-strings attached.

That's according to a new report titled Southern Ontario's Basic Income Experience, which was compiled by researchers at McMaster and Ryerson University, in partnership with the Hamilton Roundtable for Poverty Reduction.

The report shows nearly three-quarters of respondents who were working when the pilot project began kept at it despite receiving basic income.

That finding appears to contradict the criticism some levelled at the project, saying it would sap people's motivation to stay in the workforce or seek employment.

"They continued working," Wayne Lewchuk, an economics prof at McMaster University who was part of the research team told As It Happens.

"Many of those who continued working were actually able to move to better jobs, jobs that had a higher hourly wage, that had in general better working conditions, that they felt were more secure."

 

[Narz]

Tax credits for having home gardens still leave us dependent on a lot of people & things we know nothing about

That's true but even a 10% reduction of depdency on commercial and governmental industry and taking control of one's own needs will help.

 

[Narz]

Why not look at real experiments that don't take place in the middle of a global crisis?

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/basic-income-mcmaster-report-1.5485729

Less than 3/4 doesn't sound that good from a capitalist perspective

 

[Synobun]

Less than 3/4 doesn't sound that good from a capitalist perspective

Roughly speaking, 75% stayed employed at the very least, with most going on to pursue more gainful employment. 25% were not employed—12.5% went back to school and the other 12.5% didn't go back to work. The majority still received better health outcomes and better quality of life regardless of which path they took. Seems great to me.

Yes, shareholder economies will hate it. But they were always going to hate social supports unless they could make it a condition of corporate towns.

 

[Hygro]

I must be misreading you (sorry!) because I don't know how I am

Genuinely, I think this is a me not grasping the point problem. Don't worry about it.

You romantic passion for creation involves programming, but not for 40 hours a week of, sayu, TDD meets 2 week sprints to maintain x website or whatever. You would engineer software rather than be Job Title: Software Engineer.

Though interestingly the "arbitrary" nature of being required to do top down imposted protocols such as TDD in organized sprints is "alienation" as described by @Traitorfish by required to prevent BS, alienating jobs as described by Graeber (jobs refactoring existing code).

Less than 3/4 doesn't sound that good from a capitalist perspective

Roughly speaking, 75% stayed employed at the very least, with most going on to pursue more gainful employment. 25% were not employed—12.5% went back to school and the other 12.5% didn't go back to work. The majority still received better health outcomes and better quality of life regardless of which path they took. Seems great to me.

Yes, shareholder economies will hate it. But they were always going to hate social supports unless they could make it a condition of corporate towns.

capitalist or capitalists'?

Obviously capitalism, and more so, a capitalist nation-state, and more so, the population that make up a capitalist system, benefits from healthier people, educated people, and people with more free time.

The Paul Romer growth equation makes the x-factor for growth the proportion of people spending their time on ideas instead of laboring existing ideas. The more educated, energized, and liberated the people, able to act on their educated ideas, the faster the national rate of growth. Who knows, it's just a model, but if all the work is automated and all the people are free thinkers able to communicate with the automation, we have infinite growth at time.