"Wokeist" - When people talk about progressivism without acquaintance

[Synobun]

why do people go fishing for fun today instead of buying it at the store?

i understand and agree that there's a difference doing it for fun and doing it every day to survive, the latter is much more dull, but i believe there's a component here of going, fishing, gutting, cooking and eating it as a whole process instead of just picking it up from a supermarket. there is a connection to materially doing something and having a relation to the process that's lost when most of our resource allocation is transaction

Is this fulfillment or is it constantly being under threat of imminent physical harm? Is there a real difference between a mediocre paycheque and a mediocre catch that means you go hungry, or not enough resources so you can only make a shawl instead of a sweater for the winter? What I've noticed with these tangible gain arguments is that they all seem to rely on the notion of scarcity and imminent risk to physical survival, rather than the abstract maelstrom of currency-based survival. Someone engaging in the former has less time or ability to worry about fulfillment, but is this due to a real benefit or because they are too concerned with their ability to make it another day? What actual difference is there, from a fulfillment and psychological perspective, between using your wage to feed your family at the supermarket and trying to hunt something big enough to feed your family? What actual difference is there between using your wage to buy sweaters for the family and hoping the local market has enough cotton for you to spend the next weeks slaving over a loom to hopefully be able to make enough to keep your family warm?

I'm not convinced people are inherently more fulfilled if they are directly, personally responsible for their daily, physical survival. At the end of the day, both routes involve scarcity, only one is artificially induced and one is real. I doubt people have as many issues with fulfillment in their work if work is not artificially designed to consume their identity. The solution to this isn't regression to real scarcity or a return to ye olden days.

 

[Gorbles]

But ultimately why you are a software engineer and or medieval basket weaver is the same. Presumably both versions of you would rather be a traveling romantic and/or porch chiller, occasionally producing works of art and science and otherwise enjoying your friends, family, and nature.

Yeaaaaaaaaaaah . . . nah. Sorry

Okay, don't get me wrong, I am a romantic. But I also write programs for fun in my spare time (what little I have of it). I mod video games. I help others do the same. I figure out game mechanics. That's very much stuff I enjoy doing, to the point I need to be kept in check to make sure I don't get taken advantage of, in terms of often-exploited passion (in the job sense, vs. fair renumeration, etc).

If something happened and I no longer had anything remotely resembling computers? I'd manage. I'd find something else. I'd enjoy other things, no doubt. But for me, this is what I want to do. I would find a way to do it even if we liberated society from the burdens of capitalism.

 

[Hygro]

Yeaaaaaaaaaaah . . . nah. Sorry

Okay, don't get me wrong, I am a romantic. But I also write programs for fun in my spare time (what little I have of it). I mod video games. I help others do the same. I figure out game mechanics. That's very much stuff I enjoy doing, to the point I need to be kept in check to make sure I don't get taken advantage of, in terms of often-exploited passion (in the job sense, vs. fair renumeration, etc).

If something happened and I no longer had anything remotely resembling computers? I'd manage. I'd find something else. I'd enjoy other things, no doubt. But for me, this is what I want to do. I would find a way to do it even if we liberated society from the burdens of capitalism.

So then you agree …

 

[Angst]

Is this fulfillment or is it constantly being under threat of imminent physical harm? Is there a real difference between a mediocre paycheque and a mediocre catch that means you go hungry, or not enough resources so you can only make a shawl instead of a sweater for the winter? What I've noticed with these tangible gain arguments is that they all seem to rely on the notion of scarcity and imminent risk to physical survival, rather than the abstract maelstrom of currency-based survival. Someone engaging in the former has less time or ability to worry about fulfillment, but is this due to a real benefit or because they are too concerned with their ability to make it another day? What actual difference is there, from a fulfillment and psychological perspective, between using your wage to feed your family at the supermarket and trying to hunt something big enough to feed your family? What actual difference is there between using your wage to buy sweaters for the family and hoping the local market has enough cotton for you to spend the next weeks slaving over a loom to hopefully be able to make enough to keep your family warm?

I'm not convinced people are inherently more fulfilled if they are directly, personally responsible for their daily, physical survival. At the end of the day, both routes involve scarcity, only one is artificially induced and one is real. I doubt people have as many issues with fulfillment in their work if work is not artificially designed to consume their identity. The solution to this isn't regression to real scarcity or a return to ye olden days.

ok again, to be clear; i'm not arguing for us to return to then, nor do i argue that it wasn't brutal when failing (although again, people worked less hours then, at least hard labour). i'm simply arguing that there is a component here, that having a relation to the material prospects of your work is more pleasant than not having such a relation. this is all-encompassingly trumped, yes, by modern security of life (in most of the west at least), but you can have less of a material relation to the work you do and it can mean less happiness. ironically for my argument about material relation, you can conceptualize it as a change in percentage to whether your work is pleasant. it does not trump whether you get your food safely on the table or not. when people talk about the material change as a problem, they very rarely argue for us to return to monke

 

[Narz]

You guys don't feel a persistent sense of insecurity due to being utterly dependent on supply chains and skills you know nothing about?

No computer programmer could make a computer from scratch, without components made by someone else not to mention operating systems and electricity.

The basket weaver gets his/her reeds or whatever and makes the basket. Of course you still gotta worry about wild animals eating your reeds (or you), other people taking over your prime basket materials spots, etc.

I would think basket weaving would get awfully boring but having even a modicum of self-sufficiency seems that it would do wonders for one's mental health.

 

[Gorbles]

So then you agree …

I must be misreading you (sorry!) because I don't know how I am

Genuinely, I think this is a me not grasping the point problem. Don't worry about it.

No computer programmer could make a computer from scratch, without components made by someone else not to mention operating systems and electricity.

A computer programmer's job is not to make a computer from scratch. Nor is an electrician's. An electrician is a very reliable job to have, but so are a bunch of jobs that require electricity. Anyone working out of a building in modern civilisation tends to at some point rely on something like electricity. What is even this point, exactly?

Beyond that, I personally keep abreast of developments in supply chains around computer (and other) hardware. I don't have, like, expert domain knowledge about it, but it's good to keep up with the news. The ironic problem is if I wanted to talk about the problems in these supply chains, it's often dismissed as "woke" anyway. Who wants to hear about developing nations we (as in developed nations) are exploiting? Apparently, not many people!

I am confident in my skills. I do not believe my skills would be useful following a thermonuclear apocalypse or some other kind of catastrophic supply chain failure. There's a large difference between the two statements. It's much like saying "what if all the reeds were burned to a cinder, gotcha now basket weaver". In order for my skills to no longer be useful, something dramatic (if not near-apocalyptic) would need to happen.

 

[amadeus]

You guys don't feel a persistent sense of insecurity due to being utterly dependent on supply chains and skills you know nothing about?

No. Someone else knows, and that’s why they get paid to do it. I know something they don’t know, and that’s why I get paid to do it.

 

[Narz]

What is even this point, exactly?

You never watched one of those primitive building videos?

 

[Gorbles]

You never watched one of those primitive building videos?

I'm trying to work out what point you're making, is the problem. Is it "my job wouldn't exist in medieval times"? If so, no, it wouldn't. Is it "we rely too much on technology"? Arguably, sure, but also moderately unavoidable. Is it "you can't rely on your trained profession if it isn't useful in a low-tech setting"? Again, sure, but I'm never going to be in a low-tech setting outside of the aforementioned catastrophic breakdown of either my own life, singular, or a whole bunch of peoples' lives.

Am I close to the mark with any of it? I'm not being sarcastic or anything, I just feel like I'm completely missing what you're trying to say about insecurity.

 

[Farm Boy]

You never watched one of those primitive building videos?

They're a proper fun fetishization. I usually like the ones where people are mowing lawns with scythes. Of course, they don't make videos of themselves picking up every single rock in the patch to be mowed. Ah rocks. Those are perennial.

 

[El_Machinae]

As a bit of an aside, we experimented with removing work from income during covid-19 up here in Canada. We paid some people very generously to not work. Obviously, it's not a perfect experiment, but it's an experiment.

At the completely anecdotal level, I was unimpressed with the results it came to people's choices. Their urge for productivity plummeted. Their output didn't match their consumption using any reasonable metric. Further, I didn't notice enough effort to change that.

 

[Narz]

Relying on tech unavoidable but there's a satisfaction from picking something you grew yourself and a sadness of having a river a mile away from which it is unsafe to eat.

 

[Narz]

As a bit of an aside, we experimented with removing work from income during covid-19 up here in Canada. We paid some people very generously to not work. Obviously, it's not a perfect experiment, but it's an experiment.

At the completely anecdotal level, I was unimpressed with the results it came to people's choices. Their urge for productivity plummeted. Their output didn't match their consumption using any reasonable metric. Further, I didn't notice enough effort to change that.

Probably their mental health suffered as well (unless their job was really crap in which case maybe it improved)

 

[Narz]

They're a proper fun fetishization. I usually like the ones where people are mowing lawns with scythes. Of course, they don't make videos of themselves picking up every single rock in the patch to be mowed. Ah rocks. Those are perennial.

I'd just get a goat to mow for me, once he's done I could eat him

 

[Farm Boy]

You can do this now. If it's a key life satisfaction sort of thing.

 

[Narz]

My landlord might not go for it

 

[Farm Boy]

I mean, I might not burn the goodwill on a goat, but nothing ventured...

 

[Gorbles]

Relying on tech unavoidable but there's a satisfaction from picking something you grew yourself and a sadness of having a river a mile away from which it is unsafe to eat.

Having the freedom to, say, grow stuff yourself is more than just this kind of choice, though. If you have kids, it's "don't eat that". If you have pets, it's the same plus trampling, etc. Sure, in time, this becomes less of a problem, but it's a startup cost. My daughter isn't even two yet. You think she's going to understand?

I cook, right? My dad's a chef. My wife does a lot of the home cooking just because that's the division of labour with me working. I cooked a lot more when we both had jobs, back in the day. Now I cook less, and I cook a bit fancier to compensate. I get the whole "satisfaction from putting the effort in", but the reality is doing that down the whole supply chain would require a whole bunch of time I literally don't have. It's not insecurity, because I know how I'm filling my time. I know what is a good use of my time, and what is just wheel-spinning. I know when I'm just doing something because somebody told me to.

 

[El_Machinae]

Probably their mental health suffered as well (unless their job was really crap in which case maybe it improved)

I think that was heavily influenced by the pandemic, which is obviously the largest confounding variable I've hand-waved away on CFC.

But the lack of productivity was startling, especially since so many of them were proponents of massive UBI.

 

[Farm Boy]

That's the con.