Women in the infantry ?

[Chazumi]

All the talk about equipment and army size said nothing about how gender affects army quality.

Tell me that from experience please. Oh wait, you aren't a woman, and your infantry experience comes from starcraft or COD4 right? Exactly...

I think people not associated with government military programs and those who's sole "military" experience comes from computer generated situations and conclusions should be excluded from this conversation.

 

[Red Door]

Tell me that from experience please. Oh wait, you aren't a woman, and your infantry experience comes from starcraft or COD4 right? Exactly...

I think people not associated with government military programs and those who's sole "military" experience comes from computer generated situations and conclusions should be excluded from this conversation.

And you are a women...?

 

[otago]

Not by gender, but by ability. If a woman can handle it, there is no gender restrictions, but naturally lot's of women are better suited for some roles than others. Even in all male units, the heavy weapons are usually carried by the strong - or at least not the skinny guy in the platoon.
Women are often drivers or commander/gunner of the APC for an example, while they rarely carry the heaviest of weaponry, but exceptions to the rule do occur when a woman is up to the task.


Actually, mixed units function better. How do you search an Afghan woman in a Burka, with an all male unit? Or even worse, would you let a female soldier stripsearch an Afghan man? Only if you had no alternative, since such actions would be considdered very insulting.

Another thing is that many women aren't aggressive enough to function well as combat troops when they start. After a year in a mostly male unit, they change. However, if they didn't have the male influence, I doubt they would function as well in combat.
The same way, the women often influence the men, since they are often more serious, less gung ho, more focussed. The best units, in my experience, have a few hardcore women, who can adapt and dosn't expect special treatment. It's not good if they are too "girly".

Sorry, but first you argue there is one standard and then you state that weapons are carried by ability.
If any person in the infantry cannot hump a tube what are they doing in the infantry.
Making women commanders/ gunners, that is like the argument coming from women so called gunners in the UK that they should be gun captains from the start because it is unfair to expect them to heave 45kg shells around.
Some how I have the feeling that your blokes carry the GPMGs, baseplates etc, while the girls look pretty with a 20kg load.
What happens if a shell takes out the larger blokes, the companies can forget any 81 mm support ?

 

[Sharwood]

Women simply cannot be integrated into the infantry. First off, the standards can not be lowered. I am in great shape, but the training and the actual offensive maneuvers required to perform as an infantrymen are not just "I met the standard", it's " I was shot at, from all sides, I was tired because I just walked 10 clicks, I still ran, people were shooting everywhere, I was sweating, I couldn't see, I couldn't breathe, but I ran, I ran to that next covered and concealed position, and I took aim, and I steadied my breathing to cover the next man to run forward".

And why would they have to be? I guarantee, there are women in better shape than you are. I have a cousin in the SAS - well, formerly - and his sister is in better shape than he ever was, even at his best. She's currently deployed in East Timor by the way, or at least she was last time I spoke to her family. She passed every test at the male level, and is now a captain. I don't pretend to know what unit, what she does, or anything like that, other than to say she's army, but if she can meet the standards in her arm of the military, why can't other women? She's been in combat, she's been wounded and kept fighting.

If women were allowed to join the infantry at the same standards as men, the rate they would be input into batallions would outweight their men counterparts, they would simply be outcasts, and not to sound haughty or above you all but infantrymen are god damn team players. It's almost homosexual the attitude that happens, we work together, eat together, sleep together, and die together. It's how it works, it's how an infantry unit performs. So, in a hopeful conclussion to this thread (because I have been there and done that more than once), women simply add a complex to the already complex situation. It just won't work.

This is possibly true. But women have been able to make it in other branches of the service, and in the infantry in other nations, despite similar sentiments. Why then, would they not be able to join the infantry? Is their some sort of 'stand up and piss' requirement at basic training I am unaware of?

I'm sorry evolution landed you in the kitchen and as child producers, but men hunt, and women support the men. The line can be blended in an office environment where the hardest part of your day is how to copy 100 pieces of paper, but when it comes to killing and male bonding in a time of war, please leave it to the men.

Wow. Do you show your wife this stuff? Or the stuff where you said your own daughter wouldn't meet the requirements to be allowed to live in your "Optimal Society?" "Evolution landed you in the kitchen." So Jamie Oliver and Gordon Ramsie are women then? Just wow.

 

[Sharwood]

Sorry, but first you argue there is one standard and then you state that weapons are carried by ability.
If any person in the infantry cannot hump a tube what are they doing in the infantry.
Making women commanders/ gunners, that is like the argument coming from women so called gunners in the UK that they should be gun captains from the start because it is unfair to expect them to heave 45kg shells around.
Some how I have the feeling that your blokes carry the GPMGs, baseplates etc, while the girls look pretty with a 20kg load.
What happens if a shell takes out the larger blokes, the companies can forget any 81 mm support ?

I'm assuming storealex means that the larger people usually carry the heavy equipment, which would be true in any field. In construction work, the guy who bodybuilds in his spare time is more likely to carry heavy equipment than the other guys, or girls. Doesn't mean they can't pick up the slack if that big guy gets hit in the head by a falling beam.

 

[otago]

And why would they have to be? I guarantee, there are women in better shape than you are. I have a cousin in the SAS - well, formerly - and his sister is in better shape than he ever was, even at his best. She's currently deployed in East Timor by the way, or at least she was last time I spoke to her family. She passed every test at the male level, and is now a captain. I don't pretend to know what unit, what she does, or anything like that, other than to say she's army, but if she can meet the standards in her arm of the military, why can't other women? She's been in combat, she's been wounded and kept fighting.


This is possibly true. But women have been able to make it in other branches of the service, and in the infantry in other nations, despite similar sentiments. Why then, would they not be able to join the infantry? Is their some sort of 'stand up and piss' requirement at basic training I am unaware of?


Wow. Do you show your wife this stuff? Or the stuff where you said your own daughter wouldn't meet the requirements to be allowed to live in your "Optimal Society?" "Evolution landed you in the kitchen." So Jamie Oliver and Gordon Ramsie are women then? Just wow.

She passed selection ?
I have trouble believing that because I know what SAS selection involves.
And forget the women who run marathons because it has nothing in common with being fit for the infantry.
Just think of infantry as mules who carry heavy loads with a nice break in humping for some gut busting sprints, then one gets to dig a few holes just for the exercise along with some weapons training.

 

[Grisu]

She passed selection ?
I have trouble believing that because I know what SAS selection involves.
And forget the women who run marathons because it has nothing in common with being fit for the infantry.

read again...her brother is SAS, he very clearly stated that he doesn't know what her actual job is, other than that she's army. he just stated that she's fitter than her SAS brother ever was...gee how do you southerners get along if you need non-english speakers as translators

 

[otago]

I'm assuming storealex means that the larger people usually carry the heavy equipment, which would be true in any field. In construction work, the guy who bodybuilds in his spare time is more likely to carry heavy equipment than the other guys, or girls. Doesn't mean they can't pick up the slack if that big guy gets hit in the head by a falling beam.

In that case you are stating that all his infantry have the ability to hump those loads.
Guess what happens if you say to the same men that they will be doing all the work while others go for a nice walk in the woods all the time.
If they can do the humping they are infantry, if not,what are they doing taking up the space.

 

[otago]

read again...her brother is SAS, he very clearly stated that he doesn't know what her actual job is, other than that she's army. he just stated that she's fitter than her SAS brother ever was...gee how do you southerners get along if you need non-english speakers as translators

Fitter, in what way ?
Thats like saying she could do the job of a kiwi grinder on a Swiss boat.
Oh, have you given those traitors Swiss passports yet ?

 

[holy king]

In that case you are stating that all his infantry have the ability to hump those loads.
Guess what happens if you say to the same men that they will be doing all the work while others go for a nice walk in the woods all the time.
If they can do the humping they are infantry, if not,what are they doing taking up the space.

man, if you have an infantry unit with a 1,75 m/80 kg guy and a 1,98 m/115 kg guy, who's gonna carry the mortar?

 

[otago]

man, if you have an infantry unit with a 1,75 m/80 kg guy and a 1,98 m/115 kg guy, who's gonna carry the mortar?

They both are, with at least one other, an 81 breaks down into three loads.
And since I would not want to wake up sharing a hole with a frag, the loads get shared around.
Besides, if 65kg women can do all the infantry chores, a bloke of 80 kg would have no problem would he ?

 

[holy king]

i have no idea, but that was what the danish guy was saying and you misunderstood.

 

[otago]

i have no idea, but that was what the danish guy was saying and you misunderstood.

Nope I did not misunderstand.
He is saying that women who command APCs are infantry, my point is how can one be infantry if one does not have the physical ability to carry out all infantry tasks.
I would enjoy putting through their paces, I was a kind and understanding NCO

 

[Grisu]

Fitter, in what way ?
Thats like saying she could do the job of a kiwi grinder on a Swiss boat.
Oh, have you given those traitors Swiss passports yet ?

gosh, that defeat really itches your pride doesn't it? btw, how many on the NZ boat were kiwi natives? oh, I forgot, that's different

They both are, with at least one other, an 81 breaks down into three loads.
And since I would not want to wake up sharing a hole with a frag, the loads get shared around.
Besides, if 65kg women can do all the infantry chores, a bloke of 80 kg would have no problem would he ?

noone said anything about a 65kg woman...but what about a 95kg bear of a woman? you somehow assume that women who join the infantry would be petite 65kg girls....

 

[otago]

gosh, that defeat really itches your pride doesn't it? btw, how many on the NZ boat were kiwi natives? oh, I forgot, that's different


noone said anything about a 65kg woman...but what about a 95kg bear of a woman? you somehow assume that women who join the infantry would be petite 65kg girls....

Losing to a Swiss team would have hurt because I cannot think of a sport you are good at, well there is banking .
Losing to a team of kiwis who took the thirty pieces of silver, nope means nothing.
When we won the cup, yep a all kiwi crew.
But we breed our sportsmen, we do not buy them in.

A few facts about women, I coach a womens rugby team my two prop forwards would be around 92 kg.
I am close to sixty but I am far,far stronger than those two women props of mine who are twenty five.
They are about equal in strength to boys of thirteen, but like all women their biggest lack is in upper body strength.
And training does not get them any closer to men who train as well.
Bears at 95 kg, nope they would be well behind the eightball, our infantry average out at around 100kg.
There was a Canadian women who was in their infantry and who did all that the average male grunt did.
But as she stated when the men were out having a good time she was hitting the gym for extra training to keep her upper body strength in shape.
Can one or two women do it, yes, is it worth the extra hassle when those women can be given other jobs in the military that need doing ?

 

[Grisu]

Losing to a Swiss team would have hurt because I cannot think of a sport you are good at, well there is banking .
Losing to a team of kiwis who took the thirty pieces of silver, nope means nothing.
When we won the cup, yep a all kiwi crew.
But we breed our sportsmen, we do not buy them in.

yup, I can see it didn't hurt at all which is why you need to resort to trying to insult all of swiss sports

 

[otago]

yup, I can see it didn't hurt at all which is why you need to resort to trying to insult all of swiss sports

You have some sports ?
Sorry one did forget the William Tell saga

 

[Sharwood]

She passed selection ?
I have trouble believing that because I know what SAS selection involves.
And forget the women who run marathons because it has nothing in common with being fit for the infantry.
Just think of infantry as mules who carry heavy loads with a nice break in humping for some gut busting sprints, then one gets to dig a few holes just for the exercise along with some weapons training.

There are women in the SAS. Donna isn't one of them, she's involved in the army in some other area. As I said, not sure what. But she has always been much fitter than Kevin. Not quite as strong, but she possesses more endurance, speed, mental toughness, and is a better shot to boot. Kevin's just an adrenaline junkie, who bodybuilds for some reason. Probably why she's career military, and he's not.

And just because some women command APCs, doesn't mean that others aren't involved in the 'humping.' Hell, Donna took a piece of shrapnel through her abdomen, and carried a 120kg Timorese to the field hospital, then watched them work on him before she'd allow them to treat her. Easily SAS material if she wanted to be. How then, would she be unable to make the infantry? And if she can do it, why can't other women? Any reason, besides not having upper-body strength? Which many women do, anyway, since it's simply a matter of body types. Some girls do, some girls don't.

 

[Patroklos]

Since we're able to move all our infantrymen in modern armoured vehicles, please explain how we lack them?

The simple fact that you have 1000 armored vehicles of all types to serve a 10K army maybe? That is a ridiculously small amount of vehicles per person for a modern army. And infantry units use vehicles for more than just moving troops around.

We have helicopters in Iraq, serving the Brits. In Afghanistan, The Brits and Americans move us by Helicopters when we ask them to.We have the helicopters we need, and should we need more, you and the rest of our allies gladly provide them. Again, please explain how we lack, and what this has to do with the quality of our infantry.

Thank you admitting that your units lack this capability. The fact that you have to ask for others to do your helo transport for you is proof you can't do it. The US doing something for you can't be used to boon your position when comparing you to the US

Since you seem to be totally oblivious to your own countries military inventory, the ENTIRE Danish military has a grand total of EIGHT transport helicopters. Thats right, eight helicopters to service your Navy/Army/Air Force and unless you are deploying every one with your light regiment then you obvioulsy are not going to have all of them available.

Your infantry are not air mobile to any meanigful degree reletive to the US, or even most NATO militaries for that matter.

Neither do you. Large part of your army and supplies were sailed to Iraq by civilian Danish ships

Perhaps you are unaware of what the MSC is. Also, just because we decide to use civilian ships at times doesn't mean we have to. The Danes have no choice but to hitchhike wherever they are going.

Argh... the whole point was that there's plenty of career oppertunities, both in the national and NATO headquaters and the like. Task Force 150 being the like.

Except every one of those billets is available to the US as well, thus they are meaningless when comparing you to the US. Nor are those organic to you. CTF 150 isn't a job, it is a collateral held by an in are commander of something else that is a job.

FACT: The Danish Army has minimal upper level positions meaning in order to be promoted someone has to retire or die. Its like working at a local law firm and waiting for the a partner to die.

It might not make sense to you, but it works, and I find it surprising how can make one patronising statement after another, with no real knowledge of how things are done here what so ever.

1.) It is not patronizing, it is simply a comparative analysis. I am sorry if your maturity level is such that pointing out proven qualitative differences equals an insult.

2.) You don't even know how many vehicles/helicopters your own army has. Hell, it shouldn't he hard, I can count most of your hardware totals on my fingers.

 

[Arwon]

1.) It is not patronizing, it is simply a comparative analysis.[...]

2.) You don't even know how many vehicles/helicopters your own army has. Hell, it shouldn't he hard, I can count most of your hardware totals on my fingers.

No, you'd never be patronising.