Wonders - the good, the bad and the ugly

[Timol]

It seems like Chichen Itza does not give you a 50% bonus in all cases.

After I built it, I adopted the social policy under the piety tree that gives you a 10 turn GA. So it should have been 15 turns. But it remained at 10. Has anyone else experienced this? Is it maybe 50% up to a maximum of 10 turns? Or just for GA that are triggered by happiness and leaders?

Thanks.

 

[Bibor]

The original post is so wrong. I don't know where to start, honestly.

 

[Rittmeyer]

I`ll take the opportunity to just say that in my opinion all wonders are bad.


This is not about flaming the wonderwhores or that I deslike wonders. It`s quite the opposite. It drives me mad that developers were able to make an even less wonder oriented game in CIV 5. At least in higher levels, there`s very very little incentive to build any wonders at all.

In Civ 4 you at least had people advocating the Great Library and the Mids, but now... really, wonders really don`t seem to be a part of IMM+ gameplay. I, at least, almost never build any of them.

 

[Bibor]

Rittmeyer, you know that wonders can be (with marble and tradition) produced as fast as regular buildings, yes? No upkeep cost, sometimes awesome benefits, but generally the most powerful buildings in the game (even if you can have only one of each).

 

[Rittmeyer]

with marble AND aristocracy you might get the same cost for most wonders and the most expansive buildings available in the correspondend era.

but this isn`t the real problem: in IMM+ you might be easily beaten to wonders by the AI, multiple times (if you are foolish enough to try that many). what you get back in gold is so little compared to what you invested, unlike civ4 in which you got decent, sometimes excellent, return.

if I have to choose either a wonder that I have a huge chance of not completing or a unit/building that costs the same or a little less and I`m sure I will get, I almost always choose the later.

but let me be clear, I`m talking about IMM+. Lower levels are different. When I was playing on Emperor, I sometimes got myself a lot of wonders. If I`m safe I`ll complete the wonder, I`d gun for it. But the risk/benefit is not okay on IMM+, which is a shame.

 

[Airey]

... in IMM+ you might be easily beaten to wonders by the AI, multiple times

Deity Japan OCC Quick speed

Some tips I found useful:

- don't aim for SH/GL (focus on National Wonders early on instead), let AI spend the time to build it, it'll free up latter wonders for you (I got a lucky start with the Japan game).
- check trading screen early to see if Open border is highlighted to see which AI has early writing...same thing for Phil/RA; with good scouting of their land, you can guesstimate if AI is teching top or bottom line.
- beeline techs deeper in the tech tree that opens wonders, so you have 1st crack at it (ie. Pyramid/Hanging Garden; greatwall if bad neighbours).
- side track to MC for workshop, put in eng specialist if you got beat to all the early GE wonders.
- beeline Edu early if you can handle diplomacy, start PTower before University.
- beeline Ironworks, combo 1st GE for Taj (works better than rushing PTower in my experience, just build PTower straight as soon as Edu unlocked)
- use 1st GE for Taj/HCastle, depend on civ's UU thus path beelined; Askia/Mongo for example, the +2 eng gpp from HCastle will speed up 2nd GE in time for Taj.
- build other wonder in Golden age, rush buy buildings if really needs.
- this game, for example, I built wonders all game long...rush buy units/buildings.

- on huge maps with all the AIs...then don't bother with any pre-medieval wonders

 

[Bandobras Took]

but let me be clear, I`m talking about IMM+. Lower levels are different. When I was playing on Emperor, I sometimes got myself a lot of wonders. If I`m safe I`ll complete the wonder, I`d gun for it. But the risk/benefit is not okay on IMM+, which is a shame.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=407672

 

[Bobafett0610]

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=407672

That guide is extremely flawed as it is very luck based and requires constant rerolls for the perfect start which many see as cheating. Just cause people type up these neat and tidy guides does not mean that they work and are flawless. Most if not all are flawed and give bad advice; such as the one you linked.

 

[hix]

If it is a choice between Oracle and Stonehenge, I have to go with Stonehenge. I realize the oracle is probably numerically advantageous, but the 3000 culture you save is not that big of a deal in the late game, when I am producing at least 300 culture per turn, prolly more around 500-600.

Oracle gives you one SP immediately, but the henge gives you, assuming slow or nil expansion, 3 or 4 policies early on, when small bonuses make a bigger difference, especially on higher difficulties.

I also find that Stonehenge is more easily obtained than oracle, due to AI competition, and IIRC, the hammer cost is significantly lower.

 

[Rittmeyer]

I won't even take time to answer each of the swings on me because there's no need to. OCC is not CIV to me. Nor is a cultural win in which you depend only on the mercy of your opponents to not invade you in ANY time of the game. Especially when diplomacy is still so unclear. Until we know you CAN keep peace if you do things in a certain way, then this cultura victories are nothing but lucky strikes for me.

Also, I'm talking about RISK! Screenshots of a city with a thousand wonders have nothing to do with that. You could have been lucky in that game. If I'm wrong about wonders someone has to proof that statistically, the risk of building a wonder that you may lose instead of a top quality building/unit or two is worth it. I doubt it.

The impact that something lika a single artillery unit can have in this game is just so big that I wouldn't risk build a wonder that I might get instead of being sure I get an extra artillery.

 

[Treso]

Usually I just ignore the wonders. Just when a city have everything I need and theres nothing else to build.

I just try Taj.

 

[Bibor]

The impact that something lika a single artillery unit can have in this game is just so big that I wouldn't risk build a wonder that I might get instead of being sure I get an extra artillery.

A single artillery piece is stronger than many wonders. More expensive to build too

 

[Tabarnak]

Usually I just ignore the wonders. Just when a city have everything I need and theres nothing else to build.

I just try Taj.

Early wonders are very beneficial. Unless you go metal casting or currency very early, it's the only way to get GPP early on. Early Great Engineer can be used for crucial wonders in mid games (Himeji,Taj,etc). Great Scientits come even later with universities. But these wonders are very difficult to get at high levels.

 

[Airey]

I won't even take time to answer each of the swings on me because there's no need to. OCC is not CIV to me. Nor is a cultural win in which you depend only on the mercy of your opponents to not invade you in ANY time of the game. Especially when diplomacy is still so unclear. Until we know you CAN keep peace if you do things in a certain way, then this cultura victories are nothing but lucky strikes for me.

Also, I'm talking about RISK! Screenshots of a city with a thousand wonders have nothing to do with that. You could have been lucky in that game. If I'm wrong about wonders someone has to proof that statistically, the risk of building a wonder that you may lose instead of a top quality building/unit or two is worth it. I doubt it.

The impact that something lika a single artillery unit can have in this game is just so big that I wouldn't risk build a wonder that I might get instead of being sure I get an extra artillery.

- wasn't intended to be a swing at you
- OCC is a type of game, some like some don't
- no military is stupid, but building it the hard way isn't the only way to get military
- bribe AI war
- lots of ppl upgrade to artillery/rifle..etc/ or Military CS.
- only viable to build art at cap for emergency; most ppy buy/upgrade

A single artillery piece is stronger than many wonders. More expensive to build too

- maybe taking you out of context, but it's wrong in so many ways.

 

[Öjevind Lång]

For me the best and most important wonder is Chichen Itza.
You can time and chain golden ages pretty easy to match up with key techs, and making them last 50% longer is huge.
Right next after that is the Taj Mahal. I found that the AI has low priority on that and even on Immortal I can get it pretty late. This is only after 2 games on Immortal tho.

Also if I am not going for culture I cant be bothered to build any of those heavy culture buildings like Sistine or Redendor. Just not worth the hammers imo. Unless you are playing Sim City style .

I'm with you about Stonehenge (easily the most desirable Wonder in the game, and as a rule you can get it if you set your mind to it), and Chichen Itza. Prolonged Golden Ages are awesome. For the same reason, I try to get the Taj Mahal; at worst, I save a Great Engineer (Stonehenge is guaranteed to give you at least one of those ) to build the T. J. The Great Library is cool, of course, for slingshotting to Pikemen and the ability to build the Chichen Itza long before anyone else does. The Pikemen will keep aggressors away; if they don't, more fools they.

Sisitine gives you lots of happiness, which may trigger a Golden Age. Cristo Redentor makes civics cheaper, and you can never have too many civics.

 

[KrisTof]

3. The ugly.
* Pyramids - 50% faster worker production? Meh. I either steal workers from city states or just purchase handful of them I need and am willing to maintain.

I am fairly new at this game, but I disagree... I always get a good crew of workers ready, along with Pyramids.

When I am ready to "take over the world" (I always end up being a military jerk ), I methodically take over CSs and Civs, and once I positioned my 4/5 workers in line between cities, I can build roads to their cities in 1 or 2 turns.
Also, when I want to replace tiles with what I want to specialize a city, it takes also 1 or 2 turns to redo all their tiles (like from farm to mining gold, etc...)

Being impatient when moving around (specially on maps with a lots of hills, forests, rivers) I always build roads over them... (I have never found myself short on gold due to maintenance yet, but I'll learn someday)...

 

[Calouste]

I disagree with the The Porcelain Tower - scientist is equal to free tech.

A Great Scientist is slightly better than a free tech because you can delay popping the GS for a free tech for a few turns, where you have to take the Great Library free tech the turn it becomes available.

 

[Bibor]

A Great Scientist is slightly better than a free tech because you can delay popping the GS for a free tech for a few turns, where you have to take the Great Library free tech the turn it becomes available.

Both Porcelain Tower and TGL are very powerful.

Don't underestimate the power of the Library. No great scientist (except with Babylon) can get you into Medieval Era (maybe Civil Service, but Theology is a safer bet) or get you to Iron Working 27 turns earlier. And TGL will also generate a great scientist eventually (mid-renaissance).

Porcelain Tower has another role. Apart form the +2 GS points, the scientist will probably be used to unlock Scientific Theory (for Public Schools) or get both cannons and rifles in a reasonable amount of time.

If I have to choose between TGL, Oracle or Stonehenge, I'll usually go for TGL if I think I can pull it off. If not, I'll definitely build Stonehenge. The extra 2-3 policies so early are just too appealing to ignore. Not to mention the Great Engineer.

 

[MadDjinn]

This was a funny list. It's definitely pre-patch thinking, and even then, not great.

* Eiffel Tower - +8 Happiness - right when you start expanding and need it the most.
-- who in the world is starting to expand at the Eiffel Tower? A little late? or is someone stuck in modern era start mode?

one of the more amusing mistakes in the list is that all of the GS gpp point generation wonders, aside from the GL, are in the bottom of the list. hmm, definitely pre-patch thinking.

I think the only one in the 'ugly' side that he got right was the Colossus. Only due to the fact that it obsoletes when you get to Navigation; which could be very fast with the right tech path. (not to mention that if you really needed water based improvements like the Colossus, you'd want Navigation for the Seaport)

 

[Airey]

The main problem with these kind of discussion is over-generalization.
Difficulty/Map Size/Speed, all change the cost:benefit ratio of wonder builds.

On higher levels, AI's favorite wonder builds are out of the window: HG, Colossus, GLHouse
After the recent patch, GL and SH are actually lowered on AI's list, making them more feasible to get, thus plan around them. Availability is another issue related to AI wonder priority. Pyramid, for example, is almost always available if player decides to build it. Don't even need to beeline for them.

And, how come National Wonders are not in the same thread titled "Wonders."