Worst military commander-who is the worst general?

[vogtmurr]

On topic:

I can't find anyone more incompetent than the two heads of the awfully ended Athenian expedition against Syracuse during the Peleponesian war: Alcibiades, that had the "briliant" idea of sending a expediction to do wild goose chase in Magna Graecia and Nicias ,for the completely stupid way he led the siege to Syracuse allowing himself to be besegied in a swampy area just because he wasn't smart enough to actually cutting all land acess to the city he was suposedely sieging, leading to a defeat so big that not even the coward guy that usually runs away to "deliver the news" to the motherland survived

Surprising assessment - I always thought both Alcibiades and Nicias were strongly opposed to the expedition, but were appointed nonetheless. Nicias was respected as an honest figure but the more he described the challenge and scope needed to deal with it, the more enthusiastic the Athenian 'Imperialists' embraced it. Nicias was definitely overcautious and irresolute, their last chance to evacuate a losing campaign (never a popular thing to do) was pissed away because the auguries weren't right. Alcibiades fled at the first opportunity to escape wrongful accusation of treason and/or embezzlement from his political enemies. The man had a flair that landed him a job for the Spartans and again for the Athenians, in which he knew exactly what to do to bring either city to its knees. He even warned Conon before Aegospotamai, while living in exile.

 

[Dachs]

Surprising assessment - I always thought both Alcibiades and Nicias were strongly opposed to the expedition, but were appointed nonetheless.

Alkibiades was the author of the plan.

 

[vogtmurr]

Was he the one who originated the idea in the assembly - or the one who was responsible for planning it ? He certainly can't be blamed for the prosecution of it, since he never even reached Sicily.

 

[Dachs]

Was he the one who originated the idea in the assembly - or the one who was responsible for planning it ? He certainly can't be blamed for the prosecution of it, since he never even reached Sicily.

The plan arose from the entreaty of the Segestan envoys, and Alkibiades expanded the envoys' original request for aid against Selinos into a plan to attack Syrakousai by stating that the place would be easy to conquer; Nikias then attempted to quash the plan by saying that it would be impossible without a large army, vastly increasing Alkibiades' original estimate. For his trouble, he got both the large army and a command.

 

[vogtmurr]

hmmm - so he endorsed the idea. I had the impression that he secretly wanted to undermine the whole plan even though he was saddled with it, second thoughts maybe ? As the History reads, if they had acted quickly and decisively the city may have been the theirs regardless, but....Athens way overreached itself.

 

[Dachs]

hmmm - so he endorsed the idea. I had the impression that he secretly wanted to undermine the whole plan even though he was saddled with it, second thoughts maybe ? As the History reads, if they had acted quickly and decisively the city may have been the theirs regardless, but....Athens way overreached itself.

The undermine-the-whole-plan-even-though-he-was-saddled-with-it guy was Nikias.

 

[Camikaze]

Any love for Nivelle and his wonderful offensive?

 

[sydhe]

Any love for Nivelle and his wonderful offensive?

It makes me want to mutiny.

 

[LightSpectra]

Any love for Nivelle and his wonderful offensive?

As much of a failure as it was, it wasn't a catastrophic disaster which permanently ended any hopes of French victory; which is more than can be said of other military commanders mentioned in this topic.

For the worst French commander in history, I would give the award jointly to Patrice de Mac-Mahon and Charles de Failly (sic) for the Battle of Sedan. "Oh, it seems as if we're being encircled... should we do something about that? 'Iunno."

 

[Eretz Yisrael]

As much of a failure as it was, it wasn't a catastrophic disaster which permanently ended any hopes of French victory; which is more than can be said of other military commanders mentioned in this topic.

For the worst French commander in history, I would give the award jointly to Patrice de Mac-Mahon and Charles de Failly (sic) for the Battle of Sedan. "Oh, it seems as if we're being encircled... should we do something about that? 'Iunno."

I would rather give that honour to General Bazaine.

 

[vogtmurr]

I would rather give that honour to General Bazaine.

although I believe you identified a major blunder of Bazaine - after a few bloody ripostes he still held the fortress of Metz and tied down a Prussian army till near the end of the war - and was made a scapegoat by the Paris gov't. MacMahon's passive inactivity led to the surrender of the largest French field command (along with Napoleon III) instead of using it aggressively against Moltke's converging Prussian army corps.

 

[Uncle Anton]

Far be it from me to be a Haig apologist (indeed, I think he was more than a little ignorant as to the science of war, and it was this ignorance which cost the most British lives in 1914-1918), there are FAR worse British Generals from that war than Haig...

Someone's already mentioned Stopford. How about Hubert Gough, Aylmer Hunter-Weston, Ian Hamilton? Some of the French commanders in that war aren't much better. Petain was a moron.

I think the only thing that elevates Haig only slightly above some of these 'Donkeys', is that he was supportive of thorough, creative and ultimately decisive commanders, allowing them the leverage when they asked for it... men like Plumer, Currie and Monash.

 

[Verbose]

Some of the French commanders in that war aren't much better. Petain was a moron.

Yeah, repeat offender at saving the French army in WWI...

 

[Uncle Anton]

Yeah, repeat offender at saving the French army in WWI...

I'd argue Foch did a much more effective job at "Saving the French Army" in WW1 than Petain did. True, he put the mutinies down, but when the Allies really needed someone to hold it together in March and April of 1918, it was Foch who stepped up and did the job..... not Petain (who at the time was performing an excellent impression of a stunned mullet).

 

[Turquoiside]

Of the top of my head this late at night, I'd have to nominate "Black Mustafa", who almost single-handedly caused an Ottoman defeat so great, the empire never truly reached the same heights. At the time his troops weren't really as undertrained and underequipped as the European ones, so all the destruction he cause and almostbe placed on him alone.

 

[ParkCungHee]

Napoleon III wanted to recapture the glories, I guess. Why, he even optimistically named his army the Army of the Rhine.

Alternatively (at least according to the Biography of him I read) he knew things were in the crapper anyway, so he was hoping to get himself killed.

The fact that he was riding a horse while suffering from Kidney Stones that day probably contributed to the "I want to die" sense of things.

Stalin, on the other hand, thought it would be more de-moralizing to retreat than to be completely slaughtered

Usually when people say "On the other hand" they tend to use it to highlight the difference.

Though I think the title for most inept commander has to go to Heinrich Himmler, who attempted the brilliant strategy of building his defensive line PERPENDICULAR to the Front.

 

[ParkCungHee]

He totally wasted the opportunity his surprise attack (which was basically an overwhelming numbers charge) gave by allowing the pocket to maintain and letting the Americans land and retake Seoul. He was so bad that he was essentially exiled until the conclusion of the war and his replacement had less than good things to say about him.

SOrry it took me two years to notice this.
While yes he didn't close the Pusan pocket, and was caught with his pants down in Seoul, he basically had no good options in that scenario.
Closing the Pusan Pocket before American troops reinforced it was basically impossible, given Korean Geography, the equipment they had, etc, etc.
It simply couldn't be done fast enough.
And once he had that problem, his only hope to protect against amphibious assault was to withdraw his forces from the Pusan perimeter, back to a more defensive position, essentially admiting in advance that the war was lost.
The DPRK took a gamble that they could occupy the ROK without major American involvement. Once that happened there was no hope for North Korea.

Also, his very notable successes as a Guerrilla fighter show that he was certainly competent, and definitely above most the people on this list.

 

[Dachs]

Of the top of my head this late at night, I'd have to nominate "Black Mustafa", who almost single-handedly caused an Ottoman defeat so great, the empire never truly reached the same heights. At the time his troops weren't really as undertrained and underequipped as the European ones, so all the destruction he cause and almostbe placed on him alone.

Merzifonlu Kara Mustafa Paşa ran that campaign reasonably well, IMHO. Most of the reason for the Ottoman defeat is attributable to the actions of the defenders of Vienna and of the Polish-Lithuanian relief army, not to any particularly outrageous Ottoman errors. Betrayals on the Ottoman side, notably by the Crimean Tatars, further weakened their army.

 

[Turquoiside]

That main thing is, that campaign should have been a success. Too many mistakes were made fir the blame not to placed on him. He decided not to take any surrounding fortresses, despite every other leader urging him to do so. Then he decicded to besige a city with no thoughts or worries about defending it, leaving it exposed to almost any sort of attack. All of this may have been excusable if he insisted the city fall diplomatically, not through storming the walls. No, he has preferred to sit in an undefended camp outside of the gates of an imperial capital. The Polish army swiftly crossed the Danube and the King was even surprised how easy it was to reack Vieena. The battle was already slaughter before the Tartars fled, the Polish flank attack was devastating and once they reachedthe center camp, it was offically over. A good number of Janissaries were slaughtered by the now offense Viennese and Poles.

Side Note: Black Mustafa also lost Ukraine for the Ottomans, which would turn out to be source of plenty of suffering in the future. Ironically, the area was seized by th e Turks because of his success earlier.

 

[Harvin87]

Maurice Gamelain