Would Philando Castile still be alive...

[inthesomeday]

Would Philando Castile still be alive if he'd shot first, or pulled a gun on officer Yanez well before he was at a disadvantage? Put the specifics of the situation out of your head, since he probably wouldn't have managed to get off any shots before the officer did. Imagine he had been prepared to self-defense since he first saw the officer approaching, and somehow the situation was that Philando had the upper hand and could have shot the officer before the officer shot him.

Do you think he should have shot immediately upon the officer approaching? Is there any scenario where he gets out alive besides shooting first or pulling a gun first? It seems that not pulling a gun first results in his death no matter what, and that pulling a gun and not shooting first does too.

One way to pose the question is, would he still be alive if he'd shot first? The other way is, could he have possibly survived without shooting first?

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Would Philando Castile still be alive if he'd shot first, or pulled a gun on officer Yanez well before he was at a disadvantage? Put the specifics of the situation out of your head, since he probably wouldn't have managed to get off any shots before the officer did. Imagine he had been prepared to self-defense since he first saw the officer approaching, and somehow the situation was that Philando had the upper hand and could have shot the officer before the officer shot him.

Do you think he should have shot immediately upon the officer approaching? Is there any scenario where he gets out alive besides shooting first or pulling a gun first? It seems that not pulling a gun first results in his death no matter what, and that pulling a gun and not shooting first does too.

One way to pose the question is, would he still be alive if he'd shot first? The other way is, could he have possibly survived without shooting first?

Who are these individuals?

@everyone else: Han shot first. I don't care how Lucas or anyone else retconned it later. I saw the original theatrical release of Star Wars in 1977, and Han shot first. Period.

 

[Lexicus]

Who are these individuals?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Philando_Castile

Would Philando Castile still be alive if he'd shot first, or pulled a gun on officer Yanez well before he was at a disadvantage? Put the specifics of the situation out of your head, since he probably wouldn't have managed to get off any shots before the officer did. Imagine he had been prepared to self-defense since he first saw the officer approaching, and somehow the situation was that Philando had the upper hand and could have shot the officer before the officer shot him.

Do you think he should have shot immediately upon the officer approaching? Is there any scenario where he gets out alive besides shooting first or pulling a gun first? It seems that not pulling a gun first results in his death no matter what, and that pulling a gun and not shooting first does too.

One way to pose the question is, would he still be alive if he'd shot first? The other way is, could he have possibly survived without shooting first?

My general answer (as I've said before) is that I would prefer seeing a few extra cops get shot to the current status quo. To elaborate a bit, if a few extra cops getting shot is the price of cops not shooting hundreds of citizens per year for basically no reason, I'm all for it. Of course, I generally don't think that's a real trade-off.

 

[inthesomeday]

My general answer (as I've said before) is that I would prefer seeing a few extra cops get shot to the current status quo. To elaborate a bit, if a few extra cops getting shot is the price of cops not shooting hundreds of citizens per year for basically no reason, I'm all for it. Of course, I generally don't think that's a real trade-off.

Wait, aren't you all about gun control?

If you agree that arming citizens protects them from police violence, why do you support control on gun?

 

[Berzerker]

he might be alive if he hadn't mentioned his gun, seems the cop heard that and over reacted as the victim was retrieving a wallet or something

 

[inthesomeday]

he might be alive if he hadn't mentioned his gun, seems the cop heard that and over reacted as the victim was retrieving a wallet or something

The cop would've seen the gun and reacted the same way. It was visible.

 

[Berzerker]

I didn't know that, I heard the tape and the cop was yelling at him to stop reaching for something. Okay, he'd be alive if he hadn't reached for whatever was near the gun. Now if the cop told him to retrieve something and shot him when he reached for it and it was near the gun, the cop put him in a tough spot. Its like, lemme see your license and then shooting him for grabbing it.

 

[inthesomeday]

That is in fact what happened. The cop told him to get some ID, and he said he would but that he had a legal gun there as well and not to shoot him even though the two things were close to each other, and that he was reaching for the ID and not the gun, and then the cop shot him.

If he had shot the cop first, maybe non-lethally or lethally if necessary, or at least had his gun ready, he may still be alive. Versus the situation that happened, in which he very respectfully communicated his abiding of the law and was killed for it. I had originally considered his not telling the cop about the gun but it was too close to the ID for the cop not to notice. It truly seems that opposing force or at least showing he was capable of self-defense is the only possible way he would've gotten out of the situation alive, which proves a number of good points.

 

[Berzerker]

Jesus, boneheaded cops are dangerous - like the guy who shot Tamir Rice in Wisconsin for playing with a toy gun. There are cases when citizens shoot (and kill) cops and dont get convicted for it, but thats usually because the citizen got the drop on the cop and had reason to shoot. Topeka had a bungled drug raid years ago that ended up with a dead cop, the jury acquitted the drug dealer cuz the cops didn't announce their no-knock raid. He thought it was a robbery. But we cant shoot cops based on 20/20 hindsight, I dont even know if the victim could have pulled the gun and fired at the cop once the cop pulled his and was threatening to shoot the victim.

Now if the cop started shooting and somehow missed and the victim got his and fired back, he'd be justified I'd think. I'd acquit him if I was on the jury.

 

[Commodore]

That is in fact what happened. The cop told him to get some ID, and he said he would but that he had a legal gun there as well and not to shoot him even though the two things were close to each other, and that he was reaching for the ID and not the gun, and then the cop shot him.

If he had shot the cop first, maybe non-lethally or lethally if necessary, or at least had his gun ready, he may still be alive. Versus the situation that happened, in which he very respectfully communicated his abiding of the law and was killed for it. I had originally considered his not telling the cop about the gun but it was too close to the ID for the cop not to notice. It truly seems that opposing force or at least showing he was capable of self-defense is the only possible way he would've gotten out of the situation alive, which proves a number of good points.

Careful you don't cut yourself on all that edge.

 

[Arakhor]

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[inthesomeday]

Jesus, boneheaded cops are dangerous

Could just be that cops are dangerous. It seems like it might be in people's best interests to just always be armed and show they are armed in any interaction with them.

Careful you don't cut yourself on all that edge.

?

 

[Lexicus]

Wait, aren't you all about gun control?

If you agree that arming citizens protects them from police violence, why do you support control on gun?

Well, I don't - entirely - agree with that proposition. For example, if Philando Castile had fired at the cop first, my guess is that other cops would then have found and summarily executed him.
But the larger point here is the same argument I make when people claim that guns are needed for self-defense. The possibility space where a gun is going to 'save' you is smaller than the possibility space of your own gun putting you in danger. The research bears this out. A gun is more likely to be used for suicide than anything else, but even leaving that aside the epidemiological evidence was unambiguous that gun ownership is correlated with being a victim of gun violence. If we estimate about 1,000 police shootings per year, even if we assume all are unjustified, those murders are dwarfed by the roughly 10,000 civilian-on-civilian gun homicides per year, and again by the roughly 20,000 gun suicides per year.

So even if flooding society with even more guns prevented all those 1,000 police shootings (which of course it wouldn't) you're not actually reducing the number of lives lost.

Incidentally, there are few things more frustrating to me than people who are supposed to be anti-capitalists falling for gun industry marketing propaganda hook, line, and sinker.

 

[Berzerker]

Using suicide to inflate homicides by gun much less homicides of gun owners is illogical, far more people die from gunshots than gun owners dying from their own gun being used against them.

edit: eh, I read your post wrong... Clearly banning guns will reduce gun homicides, seems clear to me anyway

 

[EgonSpengler]

I've thought about this question myself. The first and most obvious thing is to not have a gun in the first place. I don't remember why Castile had one, though. Maybe he actually had a good reason. The second thing is to not put the gun in the glovebox with your ID and/or registration. If it is, just don't reach for the ID and/or registration. Just sit there with your hands in view, on the wheel or whatever. I assume if you just refuse to give a police officer your registration - for whatever reason - they'll probably ask you to get out of the car. Maybe they'll handcuff you and ask you to sit on the curb while they go into your glovebox themselves. This cop was alone, so maybe he'd call for backup before doing all that, seeing as there were two people in the car.

 

[Berzerker]

yeah, I'd agree with all that... I suspect the victim thought telling the cop about the gun would put him at ease and so he didn't think twice about reaching near the gun

 

[inthesomeday]

Incidentally, there are few things more frustrating to me than people who are supposed to be anti-capitalists falling for gun industry marketing propaganda hook, line, and sinker.

Famed gun industry shills like Karl Marx, Huey Newton, and Eugene Debs are among my biggest influences, yeah.

Show me a left-wing figure that supports gun control. Even one.

 

[Lexicus]

Famed gun industry shills like Karl Marx, Huey Newton, and Eugene Debs are among my biggest influences, yeah.

Show me a left-wing figure that supports gun control. Even one.

How about ypu respond to my actual argument instead of peddling this Great Man stuff?

 

[Karpius]

I've thought about this question myself. The first and most obvious thing is to not have a gun in the first place. I don't remember why Castile had one, though. Maybe he actually had a good reason. The second thing is to not put the gun in the glovebox with your ID and/or registration. If it is, just don't reach for the ID and/or registration. Just sit there with your hands in view, on the wheel or whatever. I assume if you just refuse to give a police officer your registration - for whatever reason - they'll probably ask you to get out of the car. Maybe they'll handcuff you and ask you to sit on the curb while they go into your glovebox themselves. This cop was alone, so maybe he'd call for backup before doing all that, seeing as there were two people in the car.

This thread was fun until you went and inserted logic and reason into it! poo poo on you!

 

[JollyRoger]

Why we would trust a member of a union and a government bureaucrat with a gun is beyond me.