WTC Mosque Part Four!!!

[Eran of Arcadia]

No, actually, I should, and in fact, my religion dictates I should show patience, restraint and even compassion to those who do that.

You know...peacemaking.

Right . . . like they are showing. Compassion, not giving in and doing what is demanded of you by people who are wrong. Unless you really define "peacemaking" as "not practicing your religion as you should be able to, because ignorant people don't want you to" - that would be silly.

Actually, the last poll I saw that covered all of NYC also indicated opposition to the mosque.

That is true; what is not true is the claim that the opinion of Staten Islanders is in any way relevant. Only those who actually live near the place can be called its "neighbors".

 

[Traitorfish]

Actually, the last poll I saw that covered all of NYC also indicated opposition to the mosque.

Quick quiz: If the majority of NYC disapproved of the existence of a communist book store, should that be closed?

 

[MobBoss]

And Hezbollah are not a terrorist organization.

Seriously? Its classified as such by Canada, the UK, the USA and Austrailia, and many other countries have recognized terrorist acts committed by members of Hezbollah.

You dont consider a group that uses suicide bombers, hijackings, kidnappings, bombing markets and cultural centers, killing thousands of innocent bystanders in their attacks, as not being terrorists?

Really?

Wow. And you call my argument absurd? Sweet irony.

Is that how you would characterize those Christians who are so vehemently opposed to this construction project? Peacemakers? Turning the other cheek? Doing unto others as they would have others do to them?

Ah, and here you go associating me with those people. tsk, tsk. Dont you know I am a different sect than they are?



Thanks for helping me prove my point Form.

Quick quiz: If the majority of NYC disapproved of the existence of a communist book store, should that be closed?

Quick quiz. If the store was boycotted and it had to close up shop because of no business, were their constitutional rights violated?

No, it shouldnt be closed, unless its owners volunteered to do so for reasons of their own.

Shouldnt people be allowed to voice their objection to it if they indeed object to it? Dont they have freedom of speech to do so?

Right . . . like they are showing. Compassion, not giving in and doing what is demanded of you by people who are wrong.

Thats not compassion.

Unless you really define "peacemaking" as "not practicing your religion as you should be able to, because ignorant people don't want you to" - that would be silly.

Again, Eran, no one is saying they cant practice their religion however they want to. You confuse peaceful protest with some kind of illegal action, when its just the exercise of free speech. Why do you insist on propagating this line when its absolutely false? Do you feel its the only way you can justify your argument?

 

[Traitorfish]

Quick quiz. If the store was boycotted and it had to close up shop because of no business, were their constitutional rights violated?

I'm not sure that an anti-communist boycott would impede the business of a communist book store.

No, it shouldnt be closed, unless its owners volunteered to do so for reasons of their own.

I meant voluntary closure, rather than forced. Poor communication on my part, allow me to re-phrase: if the majority of residents of NYC wanted the book store to close, would it be "proper" for the owners to close it? Is public pressure sufficient to create social obligation?

Shouldnt people be allowed to voice their objection to it if they indeed object to it? Dont they have freedom of speech to do so?

That depends on whether their objections can be considered reasonable or unreasonable, which is what the above question is intended to address. I could protest in demand that McDonalds gives me a lifetime supply of fries, and I would be entitled to do so, but that doesn't mean I have any right to make such a demand, nor that anyone should pay it any heed.
The right to free expression is not the right to be listened to, if that makes sense.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Ah, and here you go associating me with those people. tsk, tsk. Dont you know I am a different sect than they are?

Note: I modified a quote.

Thats not compassion.

That is not what I meant; they show compassion plus build a community center.

Wait, there is a lot of overlap.

Again, Eran, no one is saying they cant practice their religion however they want to. You confuse peaceful protest with some kind of illegal action, when its just the exercise of free speech. Why do you insist on propagating this line when its absolutely false? Do you feel its the only way you can justify your argument?

Actually, people are insisting that they not be allowed to practice their religion.

And other people (like you) are insisting that they willingly back down, despite there not being a reason for them to do so.

No good reason. You still haven't given a good reason.

 

[Atlas14]

Quick quiz. If the store was boycotted and it had to close up shop because of no business, were their constitutional rights violated?

No, it shouldnt be closed, unless its owners volunteered to do so for reasons of their own.

Shouldnt people be allowed to voice their objection to it if they indeed object to it? Dont they have freedom of speech to do so?

Ok, I get that you agree the Mosque has the right to be built, and that you have the right to protest the building of it.

If you could remind me again (since I don't care to sift through too many pages of this) why you're against it, i'd appreciate it.

If there is no connection between the future people of the proposed Mosque and the terrorists involved with 9/11, except for the detail that they share a religion...then what is the big deal. I'm honestly confused as to why anyone could find it "disrespectful"...

 

[MobBoss]

I'm not sure that an anti-communist boycott would impede the business of a communist book store.

Neither would it probably be objected to....but that wasnt the point. Obviously.

I meant voluntary closure, rather than forced. Poor communication on my part, allow me to re-phrase: if the majority of residents of NYC wanted the book store to close, would it be "proper" for the owners to close it? Is public pressure sufficient to create social obligation?

Its proper if its owners deem it proper to do so. Its also proper for people to object to something if they deem it objectionable and desire to exericse their freedom of speech about it. Isnt that one of the most basic freedoms of our society?

That depends on whether their objections can be considered reasonable or unreasonable

I dont think freedom of speech hinges upon that requirement does it?

No, it doesnt.

The right to free expression is not the right to be listened to, if that makes sense.

Then blame the media for it has chosen that those in opposition to the mosque have a right to be listened to.

If you could remind me again (since I don't care to sift through too many pages of this) why you're against it, i'd appreciate it.

I have stated this several times before, but here it is again. I think the current situation is such that this mosque will do more harm to muslim/non-muslim relations if built, than good. Its obviously a hugely divisive issue, and as such not helping anyone or bringing any actual 'peace' at all....just more division.

In that regard, if neither side is willing to back down, and it doesnt appear thats the case, then both sides arent really interested in peace....just their own goals in regards to the situation.

Also, I have no doubt in my mind at all that other muslims, especially far more radical ones, will indeed view this entire issue as a 'victory mosque' and that viewpoint is backed up more than a bit historically, as conquering muslims have often built such mosques historically. Yes, I realize thats not the mosque planners intent, but I think more is at stake here than just their intent, and I fully admit this is simply my own personal opinion, no more, no less, and certainly not agreed with by many.

Note: I modified a quote.

Can you give me a link where the Imam said that? If not, could you please not modify my posts like that? You are more than able to make your point without altering my quote.

Actually, people are insisting that they not be allowed to practice their religion.

I dont equate that with being against building a mosque. If people are saying someone shouldnt be allowed to practice their religion, then they are wrong, but thats an entirely different thing than simply being against the building of a mosque.

And other people (like you) are insisting that they willingly back down, despite there not being a reason for them to do so.

Of course there is a reason and its a good one. To keep the peace.

Let me ask you a question. If you are driving down the road, and a guy turns on a blinker to merge into your lane do you:

a. Cut him off - how dare he merge ahead of me.

b. Back down and let him in thereby keeping the peace, at the cost of you being a millisecond slower?

No good reason. You still haven't given a good reason.

See above. If keeping peace isnt a good enough reason for you to back down from something, I dont know what is. I cant help you if you fail to see that.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Interesting note: each of us (the American posters) has the right, the Constitutional right, to protest anything and everything we want - including the construction of churches.

 

[Traitorfish]

Neither would it probably be objected to....but that wasnt the point. Obviously.

Are you comparing the anti-"Mosque" protests to a boycott?

Its proper if its owners deem it proper to do so. Its also proper for people to object to something if they deem it objectionable and desire to exericse their freedom of speech about it. Isnt that one of the most basic freedoms of our society?

Then... On what grounds are the protests being made? Apparently they lack any moral grounds on which to make the demands which have been made.

I dont think freedom of speech hinges upon that requirement does it?

No, it doesnt.

That was in response to the comment that people "should" make personal objections known; I do not think they should if their objections are unreasonable. Which, of course, just loops us back around to the beginning of the debate.

Then blame the media for it has chosen that those in opposition to the mosque have a right to be listened to.

It has chosen to make them heard, which is a somewhat different thing. No-one has yet established why those building the community centre should pay them any heed.

If you could remind me again (since I don't care to sift through too many pages of this) why you're against it, i'd appreciate it.
I have stated this several times before, but here it is again. I think the current situation is such that this mosque will do more harm to muslim/non-muslim relations if built, than good. Its obviously a hugely divisive issue, and as such not helping anyone or bringing any actual 'peace' at all....just more division.

You think that it should be opposed, because their continued building off it in the face of opposition is divisive? Doesn't that strike you as a little circular?

 

[Brian Shanahan]

Interesting note: each of us (the American posters) has the right, the Constitutional right, to protest anything and everything we want - including the construction of churches.

Ah, but can ye protest the protests? Also I bet if ye start protesting the wrong things (e.g. a party congrees, WTO negotiations) the powers will decide that they are violent and illegal, and thus ban them.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Ah, and here you go associating me with those people. tsk, tsk. Dont you know I am a different sect than they are?

Simply because you belong to a "different sect", that means you don't share the same attitudes and morals in most cases, and obviously in these matters which are basic precepts of Christianity?

And I'm obviously not trying to "associate" you with them since you claim you aren't really that opposed, despite all this rehetoric over 4 threads to the contrary.

But where is your condemnation of their quite obvious lack of "peacemaking" in this matter? Why does this criticism only apply to Muslims?

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

I don't know about WTO or party congress protests (though I am pretty sure they happen), but I do know people have been rallying for the community center (and thus by extrapolation protesting the protesters).

 

[MobBoss]

Are you comparing the anti-"Mosque" protests to a boycott?

The post was comparing a comunist book store with the mosque....so...yeah.

Simply because you belong to a "different sect", that means you don't share the same attitudes and morals in most cases, and obviously including these basic precepts of Christianity? Are you claiming they aren't really Christians while your "sect" is due to quite minor differences?

Where is your condemnation of their quite obvious lack of "peacemaking" in this matter? Why does this only apply to Muslims?

Isnt that the same question many are asking moderate muslims in regards to their more fanatical brethren?

Do moderate muslims claim that radial muslims arent even really muslims?

I think your starting to get the picture....

Ah, but can ye protest the protests? Also I bet if ye start protesting the wrong things (e.g. a party congrees, WTO negotiations) the powers will decide that they are violent and illegal, and thus ban them.

Sure you can counter-protest a protest. It happens all the time.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Isnt that the same question many are asking moderate muslims in regards to their more fanatical brethren?

What? Why they think so many Christians aren't acting like "peacemakers" by being so rabidly opposed to Islam for no reason?

 

[Traitorfish]

The post was comparing a comunist book store with the mosque....so...yeah.

But... That's not what a boycott is.

 

[MobBoss]

What? Why so many Christians aren't acting like "peacemakers" by being so rabidly opposed to Islam for no reason?

Are they being rabidly opposed to Islam, or are they simply being opposed to a mosque near ground zero?

The flp side of that question is pertinent too....why are so many muslims so rabidly opposed to non-muslims (or even other muslims sometimes) that they commit acts of terrorism? I mean thats even a bit more harsh than peaceful protest isnt it?

But... That's not what a boycott is.

A boycott can be a form of protest cant it? In my experience, it often is precisely that. In fact, VRCWAgent has commented several times of personal boycotts he has done as a form of personal protest. So?

 

[ParkCungHee]

Ah, but can ye protest the protests? Also I bet if ye start protesting the wrong things (e.g. a party congrees, WTO negotiations) the powers will decide that they are violent and illegal, and thus ban them.

What? People protest those things, all the time.

 

[Traitorfish]

A boycott can be a form of protest cant it? In my experience, it often is precisely that. In fact, VRCWAgent has commented several times of personal boycotts he has done as a form of personal protest. So?

It's a form of protest, but it's not one with any relevance. The builders of the community centre aren't going to be in any way deterred because conservative Christians refuse to attend an Islamic service.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Are they being rabidly opposed to Islam, or are they simply being opposed to a mosque near ground zero?

The flp side of that question is pertinent too....why are so many muslims so rabidly opposed to non-muslims (or even other muslims sometimes) that they commit acts of terrorism? I mean thats even a bit more harsh than peaceful protest isnt it?

Are you trying to claim that the only anti-Islam activity which has occurred in the US and in Europe is being opposed to this mosque for no valid reason? Haven't you been reading the multitude of threads on this very subject in this very forum?

And once again, the vast majority of Muslims are indeed opposed to terrorism despite your absurd allegations to the contrary.

So where is your condemnation of their obvious lack of "peacemaking" in these matters?

 

[Bill3000]

What? People protest those things, all the time.

Yeah.


Link to video.