WTC Mosque Part Four!!!

[Eran of Arcadia]

Are they being rabidly opposed to Islam, or are they simply being opposed to a mosque near ground zero?

As some of the protesters have been quoted as saying, and as their signs have revealed, many are opposed to Islam as such, not just a Ground Zero Lower Manhattan Mosque community center.

 

[MobBoss]

It's a form of protest, but it's not one with any relevance. The builders of the community centre aren't going to be in any way deterred because conservative Christians refuse to attend an Islamic service.

Sigh. Seriously, the boycott was in reference to opposition to a communist book store.

Cant you keep your reality out of your hypotheticals?

And once again, the vast majority of Muslims are indeed opposed to terrorism despite your absurd allegations to the contrary.

Just like the vast majority of christians arent rabidly anti-muslim. Right?

 

[Traitorfish]

Sigh. Seriously, the boycott was in reference to opposition to a communist book store.

Cant you keep your reality out of your hypotheticals?

The establishment in question is neither here nor there; it could be an S&M club or a Satanist chapel or whatever, anything that people are liable to take offence to. The question was simply whether or not the majority have the moral right to demand the closure- not the forced government closure, merely the voluntary closure- of an unpopular establishment on grounds of distaste.

 

[JollyRoger]

Except it was muslims that perpetrated 9/11.

I really dont understand why people dont get why it would be sensitive.

I will try this again to see if you have a response. It was religious extremists that perpetrated 9/11. Why not rid the 4 block area of all religious buildings to show some sensitivity to the nonreligious and their families that were victims of 9/11?

 

[civver_764]

Seriously? Its classified as such by Canada, the UK, the USA and Austrailia, and many other countries have recognized terrorist acts committed by members of Hezbollah.

You dont consider a group that uses suicide bombers, hijackings, kidnappings, bombing markets and cultural centers, killing thousands of innocent bystanders in their attacks, as not being terrorists?

Really?

It's a parliamentary organization in a legitimate state. Only 5 countries count as a terrorist organization and surprise surprise, US, Israel, and the UK are among them.

Wow. And you call my argument absurd? Sweet irony.

I like how you think this refutes anything I said. You're really good at avoiding questions you don't want to answer.

 

[Gruekiller]

While it's very true that the Muslims responsible for 9/11 were extremists, and that most Muslims disapprove of terrorism, it's also very true that many Americans don't know the difference - and worse, don't seem to care. I seem to recall reading somewhere that many people, when confronted with evidence contrary to their assumptions or beliefs, become even more defensive of, and entrenched within, their point of view.

 

[Brian Shanahan]

I like how you think this refutes anything I said. You're really good at avoiding questions you don't want to answer.

Thats because he takes a Ronnie Rust attitude to life, in that anything which is hard to square with his worldview does not exist, as nothing which contradicts his worldview could possibly exist.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

While it's very true that the Muslims responsible for 9/11 were extremists, and that most Muslims disapprove of terrorism, it's also very true that many Americans don't know the difference - and worse, don't seem to care. I seem to recall reading somewhere that many people, when confronted with evidence contrary to their assumptions or beliefs, become even more defensive of, and entrenched within, their point of view.

Typical common human reaction whenever strong feelings you have appear to be misplaced. People rather seek justifications for those strong feelings than reverse their opinion and in their minds look like an idiot for having those strong feelings in the first place. Also darnit, it sure feels nice to have strong feelings, especially outrage. You can focus all your pent up frustration into an arbitrary direction.

Also, strong feelings.

 

[MobBoss]

It's a parliamentary organization in a legitimate state. Only 5 countries count as a terrorist organization and surprise surprise, US, Israel, and the UK are among them.

And Canada and Austrailia, and many more have accused them of performing terrorist acts but not going as far as labeling them a terrorist organization.

The record speaks for itself. I humbly sumbit that Hezbollah does indeed engage in and sponsors terrorist acts, and as such is a terrorist organization. You saying it isnt doesnt change the factual record in this regard.

 

[Holycannoli]

I'll admit it is flawed to a somewaht similar degree as the flawed way of the thinking of a lot of idiots (not you, just in general) who oppose a community center being built 4 blocks away from where at least two Muslim groups used to gather in prayer before the buildings they prayed in were destroyed.

The difference is muslim extremists flying planes into the WTC and pentagon on 9/11.

If it was 4 blocks away, why the insistence on keeping the new mosque at that site, and not move it somewhere else? It's bad for muslim/non-muslim relations in this country, as already evidenced and as already seen in a video clip I posted in a previous thread.

Well, given that Islamists are inevitably grossly misogynistic- Male Supremacists, if you like- that wouldn't be an inaccurate description. Just because that particular point of their program isn't at the very top of the list doesn't mean it isn't on there.

(And before anyone says "But they killed men!", they killed Muslims, too. They're clearly not picky, these guys.)

Yep, their targets were americans, and I think in their eyes an american muslim is just as guilty and just as punishable by death. They're nuts. But my point still stands in that hypothetical argument - they did not do anything in the name of their gender.

If McVeigh wasn't actually a Christian (which is highly debatable), he was certainly a terrorist for the Christians who died at Waco.

http://www.ethicsdaily.com/news.php?viewStory=15532

Or perhaps you would prefer the "idiots" at WorldNewsDaily's take on the facts despite its obvious biased agenda?

Be careful, because you're almost sounding like one of those people who use the argument that "McVeigh was a christian terrorist" when trying to counter those who say muslims killed us on 9/11.

And McVeigh didnt perform his act of terrorism because they were 'christian' as you allege, but because of his distorted (and insane) view of the government.

And fwiw, I think McVeigh, although raised a Christian, obviously gave up those beliefs during adulthood, prior to his act of terrorism.

Most of us know the difference, but there are some who insist that McVeigh was a christian terrorist and they love using that argument. The idiots on The View used it, and probably thought they put up a good counterargument. But your brain has to be made of mush to hear that and think "yeah that's a good point".

 

[Ajidica]

If it was 4 blocks away, why the insistence on keeping the new mosque at that site, and not move it somewhere else?

Because they are already praying there? Because Manhattan is quite crowded and there isn't much land left over for a community center?

It's bad for muslim/non-muslim relations in this country, as already evidenced and as already seen in a video clip I posted in a previous thread.

So we should cater to the 'Thar will be Ay-rahb thar' crowd? (Not that you are among them, but they make up a decently large percentage of them.)

 

[Formaldehyde]

Just like the vast majority of christians arent rabidly anti-muslim. Right?

Exactly. The percentage of fanatical Christians who are hopelessly bigoted and really don't have a clue how to act in modern society is probably quite similar to the percentage of Muslims who have exactly the same problem.

So, once again, why aren't you condemning these Christian nutjobs as you do the fanatical Muslims?

And why do you even try to condemn the moderate ones, such as Imam Rauf, who obviously have a much better notion of what it really means to be a loyal American than many Republicans? Why the double standard?

 

[Traitorfish]

Yep, their targets were americans, and I think in their eyes an american muslim is just as guilty and just as punishable by death. They're nuts. But my point still stands in that hypothetical argument - they did not do anything in the name of their gender.

But why not? Politicised misogyny is most certainly part of the Islamist agenda. If they view American Muslims as traitors to the cause, then why not American men, too?

 

[MobBoss]

And why do you even try to condemn the moderate ones, such as Imam Rauf, who obviously have a much better notion of what it really means to be a loyal American than many Republicans? Why the double standard?

I will cease to give Imam Rauf grief when he decides to grow a pair and actually call a terrorist organization precisely that....a terrorist organization. Then I will actually start to see he is taking a stand against Islamic terrorism. Until then...its just talk.

 

[Ajidica]

So serving as Bush's MidEast peace envoy doesn't count?

 

[Cutlass]

I will cease to give Imam Rauf grief when he decides to grow a pair and actually call a terrorist organization precisely that....a terrorist organization. Then I will actually start to see he is taking a stand against Islamic terrorism. Until then...its just talk.

Do you call the Tiller Killer a terrorist?

 

[civver_764]

And Canada and Austrailia, and many more have accused them of performing terrorist acts but not going as far as labeling them a terrorist organization.

They're no more terrorists than Israel are. War criminals would be a more accurate description. For both of them.

I don't even know why we're discussing this though. He doesn't have to condemn them at all because they have nothing to do with him.

The record speaks for itself. I humbly sumbit that Hezbollah does indeed engage in and sponsors terrorist acts, and as such is a terrorist organization. You saying it isnt doesnt change the factual record in this regard.

How humble of you

 

[MobBoss]

Do you call the Tiller Killer a terrorist?

Did he have a bomb vest and kill people in a market?

 

[Cutlass]

Did he have a bomb vest and kill people in a market?

How is that relevant?

 

[Traitorfish]

Did he have a bomb vest and kill people in a market?

Did the Provisional IRA?