WTC Mosque Part Four!!!

[warpus]

Eran, its been described itself by the planners as a mosque...not simply a 'prayer room'.....

So, why are you even arguing something that the planners dont even say? Seriously?

Its a mosque. Stop playing the semantics game and just admit it since the planners do as well.

They don't say it's a mosque at all. They say it's a mosque inside a community centre.

By the way, I don't see why anything has to "sting" when you are right about something and I am wrong. (Re: lack of mosque in pentagon) You did some reasearch, got to the truth (tm), shared it with the rest of us, there is no need to act like a child.

 

[MobBoss]

They don't say it's a mosque at all. They say it's a mosque inside a community centre.

Pertinent parts highlighted.

Btw, your comment above is rather mutually exclusive. 'They say its a mosque....' simply isnt compatible with 'they dont say its a mosque at all'....you actually defeat your own argument there. Nicely done!!!

By the way, I don't see why anything has to "sting" when you are right about something and I am wrong. (Re: lack of mosque in pentagon) You did some reasearch, got to the truth (tm), shared it with the rest of us, there is no need to act like a child.

Your're hardly the first guy to fling that 'Pentagon Mosque' thing around like it was some end all/be all point. In fact, so many have used it I can hardly believe none of those commenting about it actually looked it up......thats what I meant by my comment, Warpus...no need to take it so personally.

 

[Ajidica]

MobBoss, does a Christian chapel inside a hospital make it a Christian hospital? Do the words 'in God we trust' on our money make our money religous?

 

[MobBoss]

MobBoss, does a Christian chapel inside a hospital make it a Christian hospital? Do the words 'in God we trust' on our money make our money religous?

Depends on the Hospital. Are you willing to admit that Christian Hospitals do exist?

As to the money question - Athiests absolutely have thought so and even put forth lawsuits in order to prove it in court.

 

[Ajidica]

Depends on the Hospital. Are you willing to admit that Christian Hospitals do exist?

Yes, they do exist. But does the inclusion of a Christian Chapel nescesitate it to be a Christian hospital? No it doesn't. So then why should the mosque inside a community center cause the whole community center to be a mosque? Muslims can fund community centers, just like Christians.

As to the money question - Athiests absolutely have thought so and even put forth lawsuits in order to prove it in court.

And where did those lawsuits lead? Basicaly nowhere.
For every militant athiest getting annoyed over that, there are plenty who simply don't care and laugh at the association of money and God, when the Bible states 'one cannot serve both God and Wealth'.

 

[warpus]

Pertinent parts highlighted.

Btw, your comment above is rather mutually exclusive. 'They say its a mosque....' simply isnt compatible with 'they dont say its a mosque at all'....you actually defeat your own argument there. Nicely done!!!

Uhh.. Okay, let's recap what's going on here:

You are saying: "The whole complex is a mosque"
The planners are saying: "The whole complex is a community centre, with a mosque inside"

You are then saying: "The planners are saying it's a mosque!"

keep on fighting the good fight, Mobboss

 

[MobBoss]

Yes, they do exist. But does the inclusion of a Christian Chapel nescesitate it to be a Christian hospital? No it doesn't.

Actually, many such chapels are usually non-denominational as well, meaning they could be for Jewish, Christian, Muslim, other other religious use as well.

So then why should the mosque inside a community center cause the whole community center to be a mosque? Muslims can fund community centers, just like Christians.

And such community centers are referred to as being part of a church, and are most often claimed as part of the churches non-profit status.

I have made this point effectively in all these threads. All across america its common practice to called such quads/buildings/structures/etc. part of a 'church'. Only here concerning this mosque are such semantics being played, and its certainly not getting any traction in the media. Let it go already because your simply not going to get anywhere with it.

And where did those lawsuits lead? Basicaly nowhere.

Doesnt mean they didnt occur.

Uhh.. Okay, let's recap what's going on here:

You are saying: "The whole complex is a mosque"
The planners are saying: "The whole complex is a community centre, with a mosque inside"

You are then saying: "The planners are saying it's a mosque!"

keep on fighting the good fight, Mobboss

And like I said before, the real proof is going to be the tax-exempt status. If the entire building is claiming the same status, and from what I have read it is, its obviously a mosque w/community center/blah/blah/blah attached the same as any mega-church complex is all across the USA.

Bottom line, Warpus it matters very little. Its being protested as a mosque, the planners say a mosque is going in, and thats it. Everything else is just semantics.

 

[Ajidica]

Actually, many such chapels are usually non-denominational as well, meaning they could be for Jewish, Christian, Muslim, other other religious use as well.

a mosque, intended to be run separately from Park51 but open to and accessible to all members visitors and our New York community

Taken from Park51s FAQ.

Regardless, your entire argument rests on the basis that it is insensitive and some people will be offended by it.
Lets look at the insensitive part:
What else should go there? Another strip club? I think that a building promoting tolerance, peace, understanding, and community is far more respectful to those who died than a den of vice. Besides, the imam here has spoken out against terrorism and served as Bush's good will ambassador to the Middle East.

Lets look at the offensive part:
Fact: Some people will always be offended by Islam.
Fact: Those people are nutters.
Result: The opinion of nutters trumps property rights and outreach attempts.
People are getting offended because they don't understand the faith. Which in itself is understandable. Then why not help them understand? Ignorance is good for nobody.

 

[Formaldehyde]

And like I said before, the real proof is going to be the tax-exempt status. If the entire building is claiming the same status, and from what I have read it is, its obviously a mosque w/community center/blah/blah/blah attached the same as any mega-church complex is all across the USA.

You don't think YMCAs are tax-exempt?

 

[warpus]

And like I said before, the real proof is going to be the tax-exempt status.

Every building in the U.S. that has tax exempt status is a mosque?

I was under the impression that not-for-profit businesses got such a status, not only places of worship.

If the entire building is claiming the same status, and from what I have read it is, its obviously a mosque w/community center/blah/blah/blah attached the same as any mega-church complex is all across the USA.

Then you're obviously not reading the right thing, as that is not the case at all. The planners claim something else entirely, if you actually took the time to read what they have to say.

Bottom line, Warpus it matters very little. Its being protested as a mosque, the planners say a mosque is going in, and thats it. Everything else is just semantics.

So basically: "We want to protest this entire building as a mosque because that helps our case" Gotcha

 

[MobBoss]

Every building in the U.S. that has tax exempt status is a mosque?

Context there Warpus. I never said that or even alleged it.

Earlier you told me to not act a certain way. Practice what you preach.

I was under the impression that not-for-profit businesses got such a status, not only places of worship.

Its technically not a 'business' if its not-for-profit. That would make it a charity.

 

[Ajidica]

Its technically not a 'business' if its not-for-profit. That would make it a charity.

Not nescesarily. Non-profits aren't obliged to give away any services for free. In fact, they can charge as much as they like for services. They just can't have any profits disribute.
It's just that most tend to be charities. It is by no means required.

 

[illram]

Community center, mosque, who cares? If the entire thing was solely a mosque, the hostility would still be utterly ridiculous.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Indeed. Four threads and still no congent reasons to rationalize this rampant Islamophobia from so many Americans and others.

 

[warpus]

Context there Warpus. I never said that or even alleged it.

Earlier you told me to not act a certain way. Practice what you preach.

Its technically not a 'business' if its not-for-profit. That would make it a charity.

You are apparently arguing this: "If it has a tax-exempt status, it must be a mosque"

Is that what you are saying, or not?

 

[Cutlass]

You are simply pointing out what I have been saying for 4 threads now. What other muslims outside the USA think its immaterial....so, the ones planning the mosque should be cognizant of their immediate non-muslim neighbors and reconsider building this thing in the interest of keeping the peace.

What the Muslims outside the US think is certainly more important than what the protesters against the mosque think.

 

[illram]

What about Muslims in the US? Should irrational haters' feelings trump their interests? Why are American Muslims playing second fiddle? They're not shouting loud enough?

 

[Formaldehyde]

Their feelings don't count. Only the feelings of a handful of bigots who lost loved ones on 9/11 and are whining about this are important.

 

[Newbunkle]

... the ones planning the mosque should be cognizant of their immediate non-muslim neighbors and reconsider building this thing in the interest of keeping the peace.

Not everyone runs away like you did from those hispanics. Sure, you "saved" your family, but that doesn't help the next family to move in after you left. If people keep their heads down things don't magically get better on their own. While the cowards are heading for the hills the real progress is being made by the guys standing their ground. Which is exactly what these muslims are doing.

Islam isn't a symbol of 9/11 or terrorism in general, so basically the "protesters" have nothing to be offended about. If they are then tough cookies, they'd better man up and educate themselves. These muslims can't possibly do without a mosque in the area where they live and work, so moving away to appease the ignorant is unacceptable (and won't be happening, no matter how much of a tantrum the "protesters" have).

Basically the muslims win, and bigot tears are so delicious. QQ

 

[GoodGame]

Wow, in before the Vth thread!!!!!!!!!!!!



CNN has this roadside blog of a couple of Muslims, a Southern white guy, and an African-american driving thru the South during Ramadan. Kind of interesting for some perspective on this thread, I think: http://www.cnn.com/2010/LIVING/08/30/ramadan.roadtrip/index.html?hpt=C2