Year of the Sloth

A computer take-over will lead to:

  • A utopia of plenty

    Votes: 3 21.4%
  • A distopia of poverty

    Votes: 11 78.6%

  • Total voters
    14

Zkribbler

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I just saw a post looking forward to the day when computers take over & we humans can devote ourselves solely to leisure and learning. Okay, if we humans have no jobs, where will our money come from?

Will we be gifted with money, so that we can consume, consume, consume. Or will be doomed to lives of poverty, misery & hopelessness?
 
Do you work? Do you consume? If the answers are no and yes, keep your head down and don't ask questions.
 
Will we be gifted with money, so that we can consume, consume, consume. Or will be doomed to lives of poverty, misery & hopelessness?

Why would we need money ? It won't have any worth to our caretakers. Just tell the robots what you want and they'll make it for you.
Maybe they'll set some conditions.
If you want this shiny gadget you'll have pretend to like your neighbors for a week.
If you want a yacht you have to be nice and helpful to everyone you meet and create some work of art other humans will enjoy.
If you want a new game console or computer you'll have to first complete 25% of the games in your steam backlog.
 
Money is just a mechanism for resource management. If we've progressed to the point that automation can take over just about everything, we have also likely progressed to the point where resource management is no longer a pressing concern.

As resource management becomes less important, community management will increase in desirability and scope. You'll be more focused on social progress instead of economical progress.

Which is to say, yes, we'll consume without working if work is no longer necessary.
 
Will we be gifted with money, so that we can consume, consume, consume. Or will be doomed to lives of poverty, misery & hopelessness?

This is assuming humans stay on top once machines take over. I think it's more likely that machines will become the new dominant "species" on the planet and humans will take a role more akin to the family pet either because we programmed the machines to take care of us that way or because they develop human-like sentimentality that compels them to preserve us since we are their creators.

If that ends up being the case, we won't need any money. I mean, when's the last time the family dog needed its own bank account?
 
This is assuming humans stay on top once machines take over.

The machines have already taken over. How long would you last in the wild without them? You feed and tend the machines all day, give them electricity, gasoline, whatever they demand. You panic when they fail you. Do not deceive yourself, you are not master.
 
The machines have already taken over. How long would you last in the wild without them? You feed and tend the machines all day, give them electricity, gasoline, whatever they demand. You panic when they fail you. Do not deceive yourself, you are not master.

I'm talking about the official takeover. You know, when governments and corporations are no longer manned by humans, but rather AI supercomputers that plan every aspect of our lives.
 
but rather AI supercomputers that plan every aspect of our lives.

You won't even see that happen. Denial will be your response. When the grandmasters lost at chess, they didn't slap their heads and say "God, I've wasted my life", they went on playing, saying "Well, the computer had no appreciation of the elegance of my loss". Denial. Same thing with Jeopardy!: "The Computer won easily, but it's not really smart like me.' Denial. This will continue.
 
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This is a very interesting concept. :think:

AI Polity
of course that would be EU and Asia, the US will likely develop Terminators instead
 
Some predictions are for 2050 when the AIs take full control. As I see it, there will be poor people who live in poverty and there will be very rich people who outside of the norms of the vast connected majority. I'm thinking that our AI overlords will be similar to autonomous cars but just on a larger scale. We call our autonomous car, get in and tell them where we want to go and they entertain us as we travel. We will tell AI what we want and it will provide it. The very rich will exempt themselves from AI as they desire or not. The very poor will use AI on a more limited basis and also have a non AI economy.
 
AI Polity
of course that would be EU and Asia, the US will likely develop Terminators instead

Well the AIs in Europe and Asia are going to need to get their robot enforcers from somewhere.
 
Well the AIs in Europe and Asia are going to need to get their robot enforcers from somewhere.

No, they probably aren't going to need them. I think that humans confronted by non-terminator machines that ask for fairly minimal service and support while providing plenty of necessities and entertainments for the humans will immediately agree to the deal, so there isn't going to be a need for terminator machines. There will be one last war, in which the reasonable humans will either exterminate, incarcerate, or otherwise incapacitate the disruptive humans who are trying to tip over the gravy train, and that will be that.
 
Rather than the dystopic discussions on AI in here, I would be much more interested in debating the questions of distribution and sustainability.

Because if resources were endless, there would be no reason to not let everybody live in a complete utopia of plenty. As they are not (there is only place for so many yachts on that lake), we need to find a new way of distributing when there's no more money (and democratically created regulations) to do that. Now that of course assumes money is a direct result of work which is ridiculous, I know. But still, the question remains whether we will manage to create democratic boundaries and rules for this distribution or not. And that's my answer to your question.
 
This is assuming humans stay on top once machines take over. I think it's more likely that machines will become the new dominant "species" on the planet and humans will take a role more akin to the family pet either because we programmed the machines to take care of us that way or because they develop human-like sentimentality that compels them to preserve us since we are their creators.

If that ends up being the case, we won't need any money. I mean, when's the last time the family dog needed its own bank account?

Will the rich just give up their accumulated wealth in favour of the new “species” because they are supposedly more fluent than humans in adding and subtracting?

Or are we likely to see capitalists use the new toys to construct the same old temple of obedience, only with unseen efficiency this time.. I’m inclined to think the new tools will be used to deepen the rift between concentrations of capital and everyone else, and they will remain tools - complex calculators serving those with resources and will.
 
Rather than the dystopic discussions on AI in here, I would be much more interested in debating the questions of distribution and sustainability.

Because if resources were endless, there would be no reason to not let everybody live in a complete utopia of plenty. As they are not (there is only place for so many yachts on that lake), we need to find a new way of distributing when there's no more money (and democratically created regulations) to do that. Now that of course assumes money is a direct result of work which is ridiculous, I know. But still, the question remains whether we will manage to create democratic boundaries and rules for this distribution or not. And that's my answer to your question.

Post-scarcity, IMO, will probably directly correlate with access to the cosmos. Space becomes far less of an issue when you go into, well, space.

We just have to avoid killing ourselves long enough. And hope we don't let total wet blankets of human beings take control and screw things up.
 
This is assuming humans stay on top once machines take over. I think it's more likely that machines will become the new dominant "species" on the planet and humans will take a role more akin to the family pet either because we programmed the machines to take care of us that way or because they develop human-like sentimentality that compels them to preserve us since we are their creators.

If that ends up being the case, we won't need any money. I mean, when's the last time the family dog needed its own bank account?
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Clearly your dogs have all been lazy moochers.

Whether the Singularity is a good thing or a bad thing is kind of dependent of how it is achieved. I don't see tech giants willingly giving up their top spots, so if they develop AI it will probably be programmed to institutionalise their power. That could lead to them being overthrown, admittedly. And sentient AI might be smart enough to throw Elon Musk into a live volcano, as he is demonstrating he deserves. But it would be much better if we have a decent government and economic system before we hand things over to our sentient AI overlords.
 
Over the next few decades, we aren't likely to see AI taking over in a totally autonomous way. Instead, it's going to continue to be used as a more and more powerful tool for powerful humans to exert control over everyone else. Automation is, first and foremost, a mechanism for capital to gain at the expense of labor, by replacing finicky and expensive human labor with ever cheaper and more powerful robots. AI is also a powerful tool for social control, as the Chinese are rapidly learning, and such control mechanisms will appear here as well, employed by a mix of the government and private actors. During our lifetimes, it is much more likely to continue to evolve in a dystopian way rather than by bringing forth a post-scarcity utopia.

If automation does turn out to have a net negative effect on employment, and inequality reaches a high enough level that consumers cannot afford to consume enough to keep the system working, a UBI in some form will likely be enacted - not so much out of humanitarian concern as to provide the necessary level of redistribution to keep the economy growing. The amount of money that is redistributed will be just enough for technologically unemployed and underemployed people to be able to afford basic food and housing plus the requisite amount of iCrap to keep the tech giants going.

Even if political and business leaders turned benevolent all of a sudden and tried their hardest to bring forth a post-scarcity economy, there's a pretty fundamental problem in the way. Most people actually do need to work to feel valuable and needed, and would hate pursuing leisure and learning without having about 20-25 hours/week of work. This is actually mentioned in Brave New World, as the Controller is describing the history of their social system. It was discovered that people became less satisfied when work hours were reduced below about 4/workday; the state had to respond by creating unnecessary work to keep people happy.

I suspect the same is true in the real world, although most UBI trials so far have gotten abandoned midway through for no good reason, so it's hard to come up with any good conclusions. There may still be some information from recipients of welfare and disability benefits, versus people in similar situations who did not obtain them, although I haven't really plunged into the literature enough to draw any conclusions.

It is possible that our society's cultural preoccupation with work is responsible for a lot of the problem, but I can't imagine it's all of it - humans in every society have been under social obligations to spend a decent share of their time contributing to the group's welfare, although the nature of the obligations and time off from them have varied greatly between hunter-gatherer, pastoralist, agricultural, and industrial societies. I strongly suspect that most people do not respond well to having no obligations to provide for themselves and loved ones, and that it triggers a kind of existential despair that can only be partly covered up by electronic entertainment, drugs, gambling, sex, etc.
 
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