Your Thoughts on Service Academies

[m2noid]

Hello all, I have been lurking on this forum for the better part of 4 years and have to say that i enjoy most of the topics that have been debated on and even the most trivial things have a healthy amount of discussion.

Awhile ago I was appointed to go to West Point (offered admissions not just a nomination) and am planning to start attending this summer. Strangely in the past 4 years of me lurking on this site I haven't read any discussions on the service academies in the US or in the other parts of word besides about the west point being used as a background for Obama's speech. Mainly I have a two questions for you the OT to comment on and if anyone has anything else he/she would like to add, feel free to add it.

1. Are Service Academies even needed nowadays? A majority of officers in the US come through ROTC programs nowadays and after going to a service academy or not a newly commissioned officer in the same branch will attend the same specialized training for his/her selected branch.

2. Should there even be direct civilian to military officer commissioning paths or should all military officers at least prove themselves first as enlisted soldiers?

 

[Glassfan]

Are Service Academies even needed nowadays? A majority of officers in the US come through ROTC programs nowadays...

Congradulations on your appointment!

At the Point you'll receive a far more intense and extensive military education than you would recieve at a typical civilian school ROTC. You'll be immersed into the culture and traditions of the Army, not to mention the discipline.
Statistically (from Armed Forces Journal), better than 98% of flag officers graduated from service academies. ROTC graduates typically fill out the lower ranks, and with the exception of serious wartime, seldom achieve O5.

 

[Glassfan]

Should there even be direct civilian to military officer commissioning paths or should all military officers at least prove themselves first as enlisted soldiers?

A little like saying that doctors should start off as nurses.

The mission of an officer is leadership. While some enlisted do earn commisions, it's more efficient in the scale of large modern armies to find the talent and prepair it for leadership. By attending West Point, you're basically deciding to make the Service your career - not four years and out. It's a higher level of committment.

 

[Glassfan]

...any discussions on the service academies in the US or in the other parts of world... ?

And besides, all the cool civs have them;

West Point, Annapolis, Sandhurst, Frunze, Accademia Militar, Saint-Cyr.

 

[Flying Pig]

1. Are Service Academies even needed nowadays? A majority of officers in the US come through ROTC programs nowadays and after going to a service academy or not a newly commissioned officer in the same branch will attend the same specialized training for his/her selected branch.

Yep. The whole point is (from a very British perspective) your time at Sandhurst teaches you everything that they teach private Atkins about soldiering, coupled with masses of education about how to run things. ROTC is a vague equivalent to the British UOTC - it's nice, but can't ever replace spending nigh-on a year learning how to do the job in a really intense way.

2. Should there even be direct civilian to military officer commissioning paths or should all military officers at least prove themselves first as enlisted soldiers?

Hot topic. General consensus (from what I've seen around) is that DE officers are a neccessity (the highest a Late Entry officer has ever reached is Lt-Colonel, because there just isn't time in an army career to make an exceptional OR career and an exceptional officer's career.) but they shouldn't be allowed to do anything until they work out how things are done. Hence second lieutenants, whose role extends to drinking in the pub and being used as impromptu defences when the army run out of sandbags.

 

[Glassfan]

General consensus (from what I've seen around) is that DE officers are a neccessity (the highest a Late Entry officer has ever reached is Lt-Colonel, because there just isn't time in an army career to make an exceptional OR career and an exceptional officer's career.) but they shouldn't be allowed to do anything until they work out how things are done. Hence second lieutenants, whose role extends to drinking in the pub and being used as impromptu defences when the army run out of sandbags.

Perfidious Albion, I agree. There are "Mustangs" in the American military (Chesty Puller), but only during World Wars.

 

[Zkribbler]

Little-known fact: There is also a branch of the U.S. mint on the grounds. :nod:

 

[Speedo]

Statistically (from Armed Forces Journal), better than 98% of flag officers graduated from service academies. ROTC graduates typically fill out the lower ranks, and with the exception of serious wartime, seldom achieve O5.

That's really more a reflection on the culture within the officer corps than anything. The severity of the attitude does seem to very by service (I think the Navy tends to be the worst) but typically you just aren't part of "the club" unless you wear an academy ring.

 

[GoodGame]

Hello all, I have been lurking on this forum for the better part of 4 years and have to say that i enjoy most of the topics that have been debated on and even the most trivial things have a healthy amount of discussion.

Awhile ago I was appointed to go to West Point (offered admissions not just a nomination) and am planning to start attending this summer. Strangely in the past 4 years of me lurking on this site I haven't read any discussions on the service academies in the US or in the other parts of word besides about the west point being used as a background for Obama's speech. Mainly I have a two questions for you the OT to comment on and if anyone has anything else he/she would like to add, feel free to add it.

1. Are Service Academies even needed nowadays? A majority of officers in the US come through ROTC programs nowadays and after going to a service academy or not a newly commissioned officer in the same branch will attend the same specialized training for his/her selected branch.

2. Should there even be direct civilian to military officer commissioning paths or should all military officers at least prove themselves first as enlisted soldiers?

They're probably still needed in that there's probably no one magic formula for producing officers. There's main paths to getting officers and service academies are one more way of producing them; They're good too in that they give young people with ambition, a pathway.

Personally, I think promotion from within is the best way to produce officers, but its reasonable for a military to have a core knowledge that it maintains in a university format. And it does give ambitious, bright, talented young people an opportunity to try and shine.

I think they're always be a reason to have direct commisioning, and that's for technical support positions. The issue with enlistment is it's geared to being a frontline soldier first, which while always admirable, might not be a duty you want your expensive technical support people doing. E.g. In battle, why risk a $1 million baseball bat, when that money would by a 100 rifles sort of reasoning. It's also partly if there aren't 'soft' non-coms, that is without 'high level' enlisted specialists in the enlisted side, then you need officers in technical positions.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Service academies are hard to get into, mostly because of that blasted Congressional sponsorship. Being a Marylander, I applied to Annapolis out of high school, and would have gotten in if not for that sponsorship thing (my Blue and Gold officer said so, anyway); interestingly, I was essentially promised a Congressional sponsorship to West Point, since apparently no one in this district wants to go there, but unfortunately that includes me also.

Personally, I think ROTC is probably a more legit way to go about getting your commission, Service Academy punks tend to have big egos about where they get to go to school.

Perfidious Albion, I agree. There are "Mustangs" in the American military (Chesty Puller), but only during World Wars.

Father of a girl I dated in high school was a Mustang. They most certainly exist outside of wartime.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Frankly, I don't see much need for service academies. I think they are far too specialized, which means your general education is sacrificed in order to get in all the military-related course material. They also create an artificial barrier in the services. Those who have the ring typically advance much farther and faster than those without.

My father was a maverick. He joined the Army just after WWII ended to escape the family farm. He eventually became an ordnance contract officer who oversaw construction of M113s.

My high school class valedictorian, and one of my best friends, was a maverick who retired as a Commander. I talked him into joining the service shortly after the Vietnam War ended. His own career path became stalled working at his family restaurant after he married his girlfriend from high school who eventually got pregnant. He now works as a consultant to companies who bid on Navy contracts, and his wife is head of HR for a Fortune 500 company.

I think you are much better off getting a liberal arts education paid for by the ROTC program, unless you plan to spend the rest of your life in the military. Then, you are better off going to a service academy. But I think in the civilian world, a degree from a regular college is going to mean more to most prospective employers than a degree from a service academy.

 

[downtown]

But I think in the civilian world, a degree from a regular college is going to mean more to most prospective employers than a degree from a service academy.

I'm not sure about that, given the academic rigor and the high selectivity of the service academies. The people I've met who graduated from service academies have done quite well for themselves in civilian life. I wonder what Igloo thinks...

 

[Formaldehyde]

Academic rigor? I don't think so.

Additionally, but not required, enlisted applicants with SAT scores > 1050 (older SAT) or > 1500 on new SAT, or ACT scores > 22, who graduated in the top 40% of their high school class, and have a GT score > 114 are encouraged to apply.

Most of the people that I have known who have gone to service academies have been high school jocks with fairly mediocre GPAs. Or course, there are exceptions. But those people can typically go to any college in the country on a full scholarship, so they usually do.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

USNA wouldn't even consider me until I got >1200 on my SAT. I know two people who qualified the same year I did, and they were both upstanding academicians. Another friend of mine, who wound up going to Haahvaahd, was a star track runner, and she was offered admission to be on the Naval Academy's track and field team! As far as I know, that had nothing to do with her grades, but in her case, she could have easily qualified had she wanted to go there.

 

[Quackers]

Doesn't the rich oglichachy send their children their? If so you can get friendly with the future military leaders, captains of industry and politicians who'll run USA so your opportunities are massive.

 

[Formaldehyde]

If you could to to Harvard on a full athletic scholarship or go to the USMA, which would you choose?

And now that Navy has decided to become serious about college football, there go another 80 or so slots to the real jocks.

But I agree those without the congressional nomination typically do need to have much higher SAT scores than those without, merely due to the demand. The possibility of a free college education is difficult for many people to ignore.

There are a lot of roads to those slots. The PDF I posted earlier showed one of them. And many of those roads do not require academic excellence. Just look at John McCain.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

You misunderstand. You cannot get into any service academy without either a personal recommendation from your congressmen or from the President or Vice President of the US. Congressmen get to pick ten each for each school, and each academy selects one of them. The President and VP can send as many as they wish.

EDIT: I think you also get consideration if your parent was killed or MIA overseas.

 

[MobBoss]

Frankly, I don't see much need for service academies. I think they are far too specialized, which means your general education is sacrificed in order to get in all the military-related course material. They also create an artificial barrier in the services. Those who have the ring typically advance much farther and faster than those without.

My father was a maverick. He joined the Army just after WWII ended to escape the family farm. He eventually became an ordnance contract officer who oversaw construction of M113s.

My high school class valedictorian, and one of my best friends, was a maverick who retired as a Commander. I talked him into joining the service shortly after the Vietnam War ended. His own career path became stalled working at his family restaurant after he married his girlfriend from high school who eventually got pregnant. He now works as a consultant to companies who bid on Navy contracts, and his wife is head of HR for a Fortune 500 company.

I think you are much better off getting a liberal arts education paid for by the ROTC program, unless you plan to spend the rest of your life in the military. Then, you are better off going to a service academy. But I think in the civilian world, a degree from a regular college is going to mean more to most prospective employers than a degree from a service academy.

Much of what Form says here isnt true but a couple of comments are. In the military, and Army in particular, the service academy graduates are generally considered upper echelon military officers and are groomed as such. As form said, the training one gets from Westpoint for example does indeed prepare one very well for a career in the military, and if one is highly competent and West Point trained one can probably expect a very successful military career because that West Point ring on your finger will matter to a lot of people. There is a term for officers from West Point: Ring-Knockers. Almost without exception, every West Point graduate I have ever come across in my career has been an exceptional officer.

What Form is wrong about are career opportunities outside the military. You see, as a ring-knocker you are part of a very exclusive elect, and again, doors will open for you simply because of that ring on your finger. Form doesnt realize this. Many of those opportunites are extremely high paid consultant jobs for the Pentagon or major defense industry manufacturers. The money that is to be earned doing that will make what you could get with a liberal arts degree pale in comparison.

Bottom line, if you get selected to a service academy you are foolish if you dont go. It will virtually gurantee you a career which you can retire from in 20+ years with a very good retirement package, and open doors for you after that some liberal arts degree never would and pretty much allow you to transition from the military right into another 6 figure job a year.

 

[downtown]

Harvard doesn't give athletic scholarships.

 

[MobBoss]

Academic rigor? I don't think so.

Most of the people that I have known who have gone to service academies have been high school jocks with fairly mediocre GPAs. Or course, there are exceptions. But those people can typically go to any college in the country on a full scholarship, so they usually do.

Please try reading your link. Those application recommendations are for soldiers already serving in the armed forces....not kids just coming out of high school. They are competing for only 85 slots allowed to the SecDef.

And again, being recommended to apply doesnt mean you make the cut. Even you should know that if you meet those criteria, its probably going to have to be a bit higher than that allowing for competition.

As to your high school jock remark: guess what...its the MILITARY...its physically demanding. Simply being a high school jock doesnt mean you dont have a brain, and the service schools simply do not admit people based upon physical ability alone. They have to cut it mentally as well, and if they cant, they will fail.