Your Thoughts on Service Academies

[Patroklos]

There should be another program for those whom are too old for ROTC yet have a college degree.

You can apply to OCS as long as you meet the education and medical requirements and will graduate before you durn 34.

People should remember that the military academies are not the only military universities. Places like VMI/The Citade/Norwich provide just as many officers to the military as the academies themselves.

And there are no lack of mustangs in the military of today. There are tens of thousands of them in the Navy's officer ranks.

And BTW, being an academy graduate has no effect on your selection boards whatsoever. There is simply no mechanism within the process that would make them matter. When selecting for O4 the boards barely even look at your O1/O2 fitreps let alone your college record. Your more recent years as an actual trained and technically competent leader in your O3 years are really all they are concerned about. If there is indeed a bais in academy grads in the upper ranks it has a lot more to do with the fact that they simply attract people who are interested in long term military careers in the first place, as you would expect.

 

[Kennigit]

So, I haven't read this thread thoroughly, but quickly one thing about the thread, followed by a brief explanation of what I've been told (both my parents graduated from the USAFA academy)

1) Whether or not the academies are rigorous/easy to get into:

I mean, it's fairly difficult. Or atleast, it's higher than average. But their is certain to be a mix of both. My mother was valedictorian in her fairly large high school and went to the air force academy. My father was top of the batch too. They were elite students, and they went. But they were also professors at the USAFA after they finished the Air Force payed for their graduate education- from what they've said, a lot of the education of the academy is really just the effort. They'd give problem sets (chemistry and physics respectively) that were large parts of the grade- remember, at the academies, you must go to class all the time. So, the professors will actually be aware of anybody who is struggling and failing- and would actually try to help those who are legitimately trying.

So, it's not just a collection of jocks or morons. It has a full spectrum of people. But most are intelligent, or if not intelligent, they're determined and work hard.

Now for 2) Is it worth it?

Answer (from what I've been told): only if you actually care about getting high up in the military ranks. Is an academy education better for the military? Not necessarily. But for better or for worse, that shiny little "academy" degree will help with promotions and everything.

The academy is a trade off- remember, that civilians will make a lot more money than the high up military officers, for the same level of work. But if you want to get high up in the military, for service or whatever the hell you want, then go ahead.

Some trade offs-
1) be kept busy all the time, and have to do a bunch of crap. You'll have to wake up and march around, and have no free time. For no reason often. They'll just decide to arbitrarily make you do stuff during the day. You have to put up with this for 4 years. And they'll yell at you. For no reason.
2) Not really gain much of a benefit in reality. You can get the same stuff from ROTC, but with a lot more free time. And a normal college life.

It's basically 4 years of no free time. And being told to do random stuff- with no benefit. And the benefits you do get you can get elsewhere.

Now, I have no idea how the army/navy works. But from what my parents say, unless you're really set on a military academy, or I guess if you need the free education (academies are free), then it's not really worth it. But they were also non-combat, and the air force did pay for their graduate degrees.

Unless you plan on being in the military 20+ years, and there really isn't any possible way an 18 year old can say that when they've been alive for only 18 years, then ROTC is better. Atleast if you can get any $$ out of ROTC.

 

[capslock]

Not many of our officers come from the academy. We get most from OCS (10 weeks) and PLC (6 weeks x 2) i think. That includes alot of prior enlisted types.

 

[MobBoss]

There should be another program for those whom are too old for ROTC yet have a college degree.

They can always go Warrant officer as well.

And to MB: Just a minor quibble, that all the service academy graduates are referred to as 'ring-knockers', not just the woops.

Wasnt aware of that, but it makes sense.

 

[Glassfan]

Doesn't the rich oglichachy send their children their? If so you can get friendly with the future military leaders, captains of industry and politicians who'll run USA so your opportunities are massive.

No, the rich "oglichachy" (oligarchy?) try to keep their kids out of the service. Military officers in America are mostly from the middle class.

 

[GenMarshall]

They can always go Warrant officer as well.

That always puzzles me about them. "How to become a Warrant officer"? I suspect that it would be different in the Army, Navy, and Marine Corp (none for Air Force, though they did at one time)

 

[Patroklos]

That always puzzles me about them. "How to become a Warrant officer"? I suspect that it would be different in the Army, Navy, and Marine Corp (none for Air Force, though they did at one time)

Mobboss must have read your question wrong. The only way to become a warrant officer is to have extensive enlisted service.

If you are civilian looking to enter the military as an officer you can apply to OCS directly provided you qualify. Navy OCS is a 13 week course (run by Marines for the most part) in Newport RI. There were eight people entering directly from civilian status in my OCS class.

 

[Patroklos]

No, the rich "oglichachy" (oligarchy?) try to keep their kids out of the service. Military officers in America are mostly from the middle class.

A myth.

In the US military the poor are under represented, the middle class are about right, and the rich are over represented.

 

[IglooDame]

I am referring to the alternate nomination process:

http://admissions.usma.edu/FAQs/faqs_admission.cfm

Quoted from the linked doc, bolding mine:

Q: If I have an alternate nomination, can I be admitted?
Yes. The majority of the Members of Congress use a competitive nomination process, whereby 10 candidates are named to compete for a single vacancy. A minority of the members of Congress names a single candidate as their primary nomination, and some choose to number, or rank order the alternates. If you have an excellent academic and extracurricular activity record, however, you have a good chance of gaining admission with an alternate nomination. Each year several hundred of the best qualified alternate Congressional and military service nominees are offered admission from the West Point waiting list.

In other words, the alternates are also congressional (or prior-service) selections.

If you can get your congressman to nominate you in his primary list of 10, you don't really need very high academic standings.

No, but you are competing with however other many applicants that congressman has. And if you aren't up to the task academically and/or are not really committed to your goal of being an officer, you're not going to graduate anyway.

It is simply a matter of time. While you were playing soldier, the other college students are typically taking academic classes taught by real tenured professors for the most part.

Are you even vaguely familiar with the actual academic load at a service academy? Do you know how many credit hours of non-military courses are required to graduate? Do you understand that unlike most civilian schools, class attendance is required? That the "playing soldier" and required athletics or other extracurricular activities are in addition to the regular academic load, not in place of it? And the academies do have "real tenured professors" (i.e. not uniformed military) - they're over half the faculty, particularly in the higher-end courses.

Edit: Here's a link that may be helpful to you: http://www.usna.edu/academics.htm

You do know he got in based on who he was, not by his academic standing, right? That this sort of thing happens quite frequently with rich and influential families, right?

Duh. You do understand my point is that no one is claiming that Yale pales academically in comparison to the service academies because at least one person graduated that most people don't consider particularly bright? So the opposite is hardly valid, either?

There you go. I bet you weren't any A student in high school either. Play any high school sports?

I was an A student in high school, and was on the varsity golf team, thanks for asking.

 

[MobBoss]

Mobboss must have read your question wrong. The only way to become a warrant officer is to have extensive enlisted service.

Not always true. You have never heard of the Armys 'High School to Flight School' program?

 

[Patroklos]

Doesn't that program require enlistment service with a guarantee of shot at flight school? I was not under the impression you actually joined as a warrant.

 

[MobBoss]

Doesn't that program require enlistment service with a guarantee of shot at flight school? I was not under the impression you actually joined as a warrant.

You can apply from high school, you do enlist, but after basic you go to Warrant Officer Candidate School instead of an AIT, then on to flight school.

So your're basically enlisted for only a matter of months in this program as opposed to 'extensive' enlisted service.

AFAIK the flight school program is the only program that does this. Other technical warrant officer jobs are indeed as you say, filled with enlisted soldiers that have been around awhile.

 

[Quackers]

No, the rich "oglichachy" (oligarchy?) try to keep their kids out of the service. Military officers in America are mostly from the middle class.

So where do the Bushes, Clintons, Roosevelts, Kennedy's send their children? Just Ivy League or something.

 

[sophie]

I still think service academies are useful to the US military. (I'm no expert but) Don't ROTC programs do training, etc. outside of classes already in progress? On the other hand, service academies such as West Point are focused entirely on your military training. This kind of training, I believe, is quite important to the military as it ensures the quality of the US Army's officers, and ensures we have a pool of officers capable of thinking on their feet and making their own informed decisions based on the situation on the field. While any old ROTC trained officer is probably capable of doing this, I would think a West Point graduate would be better prepared and therefore more capable of doing this.

I hope my little spiel didn't come out as gibberish too much!

 

[Ecofarm]

If you are civilian looking to enter the military as an officer you can apply to OCS directly provided you qualify. Navy OCS is a 13 week course (run by Marines for the most part) in Newport RI. There were eight people entering directly from civilian status in my OCS class.

When I was in the army, one needed a 4 year degree and a good score on a test given in basic training. Have a 4-year and nail that test in basic, and one is off to OCS (presumably and functionally with the 'go ahead' from one's basic training cadre).

 

[Patroklos]

Yes, a four year degree and a good ASVAB score are two of the main requirements to apply to OCS as a civilian, but there are others like a criminal record and clearance screening and all the normal medical hoops.

Technically this is what I did. Though I graduated from a Senior Military Academy they still use ROTC as the entry mechanism and since I was kicked out of ROTC because of medical my sophomore year (NROTC can only commission line officers) I had to enlist and join the Baccalaureate Degree Completion Program to get into OCS. In that program you enlist in the reserves but that is just a mechanism to get you money for college, you don't do any training except for the normal PFA, and then you are reserved a slot at OCS after getting your degree (if you don't graduate you are sent to boot camp to finish your enlistment).

So while technically I went to both a military college and was prior enlisted, I never claim the enlisted status because it was just an administrative trick. For all intents and purposes I went to OCS as a civilian.

 

[Ecofarm]

I didn't mean just asvab (though of course that must be good). They gave a test in basic for people with 4-years that qualified them for OCS.

They also gave everyone a test for language aptitude. I scored so well on that, I almost went to Monterey CA for language school (a real resort assignment) instead of Jump School and the 82nd. But I just couldn't see myself as a REMF, I love the field.


ps. Guys, we know some people are just gonna crap all over anything that involves the US military. Perhaps we should just let them run their ignorant/anti-US-power mouths. Responding to them constantly is tiresome. I don't like letting innocent/uninformed people to just be exposed to that BS without response, but those US-military-haters are always going to crap on anything involving the US military and we are not always going to be around to set the record straight...

 

[Patroklos]

I didn't mean just asvab (though of course that must be good). They gave a test in basic for people with 4-years that qualified them for OCS.

Yeah, but I think Civ General was asking about how to become an officer directly from being a civilian. The Navy screens the new boot camp schools for officers too, but that is after you are already in boot camp and that means if you don't get picked up you are stuck with an enlistment.

In the Navy at least, you can apply directly to OCS and get accepted without any enlisted time at all. You literally just show up and report directly to the OCS quarterdeck as a civilian.

They also gave everyone a test for language aptitude. I scored so well on that, I almost went to Monterey CA for language school (a real resort assignment) instead of Jump School and the 82nd. But I just couldn't see myself as a REMF, I love the field.

That didn't mean you would be a REMF (not that there is anything wrong with that!), SF eats up language qualified soldiers.

 

[Flying Pig]

What Form is wrong about are career opportunities outside the military. You see, as a ring-knocker you are part of a very exclusive elect, and again, doors will open for you simply because of that ring on your finger. Form doesnt realize this. Many of those opportunites are extremely high paid consultant jobs for the Pentagon or major defense industry manufacturers. The money that is to be earned doing that will make what you could get with a liberal arts degree pale in comparison.

Goes in Britian too. The first job I went for outside the military was the police service, and at the top of my CV I wrote, with a bit of padding: my name, my age then, my regiment, and that I had been to RMAS. I got the job basically on that.

 

[GenMarshall]

Yeah, but I think Civ General was asking about how to become an officer directly from being a civilian.

Bingo