Zero day DLC = disrespecting the customer

Im surprised you werent struck by moderator for that post... is piracy allowed?

Hypothetical discussion, which will sure not here happen, so not worth a point.

How about they just delete your registration number from steam?

That was meant to link16 in connection to this forum here ;).


@ the whole discussion: Don't forget that steam will not have a monopol on mods. Mods will still be hosted and developed here (unless they violate a law).
 
@ the whole discussion: Don't forget that steam will not have a monopol on mods. Mods will still be hosted and developed here (unless they violate a law).

And unless the mod-browser will just ignore them.

After all, what we learned about 2K's brilliant ideas during the past days, I wouldn't be surprised if mods to be managed by the mod-browser would require some kind of digital signature.
Where to get it? On Steam.

Oh, not put the mod on Steam? Or maybe denied by Steam, since conflicting with to be released DLC? Sorry, will not be visible by the mod-browser.
 
If you look at the pre-order on amazon.com, it talks about the pre-sale bonus DLC. However, no mention of DLC on amazon.co.uk (although the game is less expensive). This suggests to me that the DLC will not be a big deal. I really wouldn't be surprised if the Babylonians appeared in the first patch Fireaxis release. I think the DLC in this case is just a way to earn a bit more cash in the short term for Fireaxis...
 
Disrespecting Loyal Customers

:lol:

And unless the mod-browser will just ignore them.

Oh, sure, if it's not in the official channels, it will not be shown by the mod browser, that's technical just logical.
Just want to say that even without an offical "okay" mods can be developed.
 
DLC = Disrespecting Loyal Customers

I love it! :lol:

Hah! thats pretty funny, incorrect though, DLC is a tool to make money by giving out more game content if players want more game content, if you don't want the content then don't buy and download it. The only thing they need to do to show "respect" to the customers is make sure that everyone who doesn't buy the DLC doesn't feel forced to do so because the DLC causes incompatibilties with playing people without DLC. I imagine they have thought of this possibility and made sure that customers who don't buy DLC won't have a depreciated game play compared to that before the DLC was released.
 
Now that I have had two nights to think about it, I think I can tell what is wrong with the Civ5 DLC scheme. The issue is that, on the one hand, conceptually, DLC is neither inherently good nor bad; on the other hand, what you sell as DLC can inherently turn people off or on. My feeling is that actual historical civs are not appropriate to sell as DLC. If you make a Babylon civ, you should include it in the regular edition, or in regular editions of expansion packs. But if you make a race of dwarves and elves, with all the required art for such fictional races, then I think you can sell that as DLC.

On a related note, civ-specific graphics art might be nice DLC to sell. Having played mods such as Fall from Heaven, Earth 35, and The Ancient Mediterranean, I am completely aware that there is no good reason other than economical reasons not to create civ-specific units. I have never been confused by the different looks of military units on any mod and anyone who claims otherwise are clueless. Civ-specific art only adds to the aesthetic value of the game--they do not distract from gameplay at all. Perhaps, Firaxis cannot make as much profit making interesting looking games. Perhaps, they may correct this by selling additional art as DLC. Expectations are the cause of disappointment here. We expect not to pay extra for Babylon. But a race of dragons or vampires or extra art and maps--well, that's different.

Map packs should be considered fair game by consumers for Firaxis to sell as DLC. But map packs probably would not compel most people to purchase them without good cause. Those maps had better be good. Firaxis should allow for DLC purchasers to leave feedback and grades so that other people who have not purchased them can evaluate whether they are worth buying.

The only DLC civfans may willingly and gladly spend $10 or more on are complete mod conversions or scenarios. But only if these mods or scenarios are given the polished finish of a professional work and are not hack jobs. And it would help if at least two or three employees were kept on to tweak and improve these. This would make the least economical sense for Firaxis, but this is the ideal DLC for consumers, I think. Subscription would not work, I don't think, for civfans. I would not buy mods based on subscription if Firaxis adopted a subscription-based model since I expect that free user-generated content may be competitive with or better official mod conversions. But perhaps you can make users re-purchase with discount the full mod conversion after any significant improvements are made, such as mod updates after expansion packs. I think I could buy the same mod again if a "service pack" is released. Or perhaps I could buy the service pack alone.

But if the only things that make economical sense for DLC is selling additional civs and non-compelling map packs, then I think Firaxis will have to accept some amount of backlash and go ahead and sell it as DLC.
 
@GoGerbilGo : Well, if mod conversions made by Firaxis were sold for a profit, wouldn't some mods made here, like Rhye's and Fall and Fall From Heaven, compete with Firaxis' mods, thus giving the company an incentive to ban such user made mods so they can make more profit?
 
So now it is confirmed by 2K Greg there are at least 3 civilizations over and above the standard version of the game that will be available at release or soon after (e.g. with D2D preorder).

It's getting really confusing now. I'm still having trouble understanding how this will be the most moddable civ ever ("awesome" for modders according to 2K Greg) when there is going to be DLC that is fair to assume will have a dollar price.

For example, even if mods of civs that too closely remember official DLC civs are not allowed to be distributed, what's stopping someone (e.g. me) from making a personal mod? Let's suppose I make a mod with these 3 civs in it but without the fancy graphics. I would now be able to play the game the same way as someone owning the official 3 civs, assuming I modded the civs to behave identically to the official civs (which should be possible unless Firaxis/2K are going down the route of intentionally hiding code from us which IMO would contradict their modding "awesomeness" rhetoric) and then participate in strategy discussions with people who own the 3 civs and I'd also be able to offer advice to people on how to set up their own personal mod with the 3 extra civs.

I just don't get it. Why would I buy DLC civs if I can just mod my own to behave exactly the same way? There is going to be a catch - just 2K marketing don't want to tell us yet. :( "awesome" indeed. :sarcasm:
 
@GoGerbilGo : Well, if mod conversions made by Firaxis were sold for a profit, wouldn't some mods made here, like Rhye's and Fall and Fall From Heaven, compete with Firaxis' mods, thus giving the company an incentive to ban such user made mods so they can make more profit?

Hello, Crossphazer. I do not believe that Firaxis has any incentives to ever ban user created mods. Rather, there seem to be only disincentives. Any official mod would not be competing for dollars with user created content. On the contrary, well-crafted user generated content only adds to the value of the actual game itself and would make more likely sales of the actual game. Civ4 was more valuable because of Fall From Heaven, not despite it. Moreover, well-crafted official mods would only add new and respectable modes of profiting if it could be possible to profit this way. Thus, banning all mods would only keep the value of the game itself from rising to its potential. In fact, without the added replay value created by fanmade mods, any iteration of the franchise banning mods would probably instead speed the process of its demise as profitable software.

In other words, your concern does not appear to describe a zero-sum conflict between user created and official mods. Instead, the more well-crafted mods there are, regardless of who makes them, the more valuable the game becomes.
 
I completely agree with you, Gerbil, but I can't speak for 2K or Firaxis' abilities to make the right choice anymore after the switch to Steam. I just foresee issues when things happen like "player X has made a very good mod about the Spanish civ. We plan on releasing a Spanish civ DLC. Those who have the mod don't have a reason to buy the DLC. Thus we ban the mod to force everyone to buy our DLC (just like forcing everyone to use Steam).
 
I completely agree with you, Gerbil, but I can't speak for 2K or Firaxis' abilities to make the right choice anymore after the switch to Steam. I just foresee issues when things happen like "player X has made a very good mod about the Spanish civ. We plan on releasing a Spanish civ DLC. Those who have the mod don't have a reason to buy the DLC. Thus we ban the mod to force everyone to buy our DLC (just like forcing everyone to use Steam).

Hello, Crossphazer. To be honest, I am not so concerned about where Firaxis is regarding their attitude towards mods. Your concern does not seem in my opinion to reflect the attitude and understanding of Sid Meier and his staff in any way. Civ, the franchise, has already transitioned to being a platform for user-generated content in addition to being a game in its own right. If they make a Spanish DLC civ, but users make a better one, then I really believe that Firaxis will not ban the user created one. They are not Apple.

Ultimately, DLC civs may offer higher profit margins, but if no one buys the game itself, then they won't be able to sell DLC either. Instead, it is up to Firaxis to create reason enough for you to purchase their version of Spain. You would buy their Spain because they have the art that looks consistent with the rest of the game and because they provide you with the Spanish voice wavs. But they have no reason to create bad blood with the highly motivated support community built around their product. It is the community of active modders that makes their games worth buying--and not necessarily the games themselves that does so.

;)
 
I really believe that Firaxis will not ban the user created one. They are not Apple.

Fireaxis is not Apple but 2K wouldn't mind to replicate Apple's business model and success (revenues).

Like with Apple, in the logic of this business model official premium content badly lives with open competition.
I strongly doubt that independent modders will be allowed to "replicate" official premium DLC.
 
Fireaxis is not Apple but 2K wouldn't mind to replicate Apple's business model and success (revenues).

Like with Apple, in the logic of this business model official premium content badly lives with open competition.
I strongly doubt that independent modders will be allowed to "replicate" official premium DLC.

Hello, wolfigor. At this point, all is speculation. Instead of trying to read their minds, we shall have to wait and see.

:)
 
The "lots of for-pay DLC content" model does not play very well with the "open moddability" model.
That is only because the movies for leaders are hard to make by a modder. In BtS you could make a leaderhead and use that for a leader, and you had a leader that was of about the same quality of the other leaders. At least the modded leader blended right in.

In Civ5, the leaders that are user-made will be obviously sub-par. Firaxis may give the code for modding and everything, but leaders will probably remain something that only Firaxis can do well.

What I am more concerned about is what this may mean for expansions. Expansions are a great way of getting each and every user to use the exact same version of the game. With DLC you have to wait and see what people get. If they would release every feature as DLC I would be very, very disappointed indeed. If they release leaders and such as a bonus in addition to expansion packs then I am cool with it.
 
I think the amount of confusion and anxiety on this board probably indicates that it would be a good idea for the game creators to communicate their intentions clearly to their fans or risk losing an informations battle against FUD spread by well-intending modders concerned with what DLC and Steam would mean for the health of the modding commmunity. Perhaps, Firaxis has been a little too comfortable with their change of business practice and does not yet see the potential harm by not controlling the message of what they intend and calming everyone.
 
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