Ideas for a new civilization trait: Creative

As I'm working on Legacy and still agonizing over civilization traits, I came up with the absurd idea of creating a new one, Creative. Here's the deal: I'm giving each civ a primary and secondary trait, and I want each civ to have a unique combination of both. The primary trait comes with a bonus tech for free stuff, while the secondary trait only gives the hard-coded effects. It's mathematically simple with 56 possible combinations, but they just don't sort out that way in reality.

Anyway, long story short, I couldn't come up with a satisfactorily realistic and balanced matrix of traits for all 31 civs. Since I turned Religious into Political, which now gives discounts on administrative stuff, I don't really have anything that's heavily culture-oriented. So I thought I'd borrow an idea from Civ4 (hold the pitchforks and hear me out for a moment) and create a whole new trait for the arts and humanities, throwing a bone to those crazy folks who play for a Cultural victory.

Trouble is, I don't know what to do with it. I can't give building discounts since those slots are already taken. It will have to be a bonus tech, which I'll provide in addition to the other, primary trait. I have a few ideas, but I'm not sure if any of them will work out:

• A specialist citizen that creates 2 luxuries (happy faces). This seems vastly overpowered.
• A free building available from the start that gives +2 culture. Useful, but seems kind of boring.
• The tech permits sacrifices, and a free building that doubles sacrifices. Other civs will get both of those pretty early, so this isn't much help. Does the double effect stack?
• A building that spawns "culture bombs", a unit with a very high shield cost that can't do anything useful except be sacrificed for gratuitous culture points. I don't know if the AI will use it.
• Any combination of the above, or whatever ideas you have.

Have an "Academy" Great Wonder which periodically produces Scientific Great Leaders ... ?

Plus, don't forget "biasing" the trait to nudge the AI into different Techs & bldgs.

Happy Modding,

z

Oz, you've studied the AI- do you know how it handles the unconventional unit abilities like sacrifice and SGLs?

I do have an Academy small wonder that I could use, but then that's more of a scientific bonus than a cultural one...

Conservatory? National Concert Hall?

WildWeazel said:

Oz, you've studied the AI- do you know how it handles the unconventional unit abilities like sacrifice and SGLs?

I do have an Academy small wonder that I could use, but then that's more of a scientific bonus than a cultural one...

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How about an "Agora" instead?

-- In my limited experience with both, the AI seems to handle them just fine, although post-PTW SGLs no longer start Golden Ages, only rush Improvements etc. (despite the check-box for "Start Scientific Age" being available -- it's broken.)

Also, Sacrifice doesn't "stack" unless you have an Improvement with "Doubles Sacrifice" checked.

Best,

Oz

-- In my limited experience with both, the AI seems to handle them just fine, although post-PTW SGLs no longer start Golden Ages, only rush Improvements etc. (despite the check-box for "Start Scientific Age" being available -- it's broken.)

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That's good, as long as the AI uses the rush ability instead of the Scientific Age.

Also, Sacrifice doesn't "stack" unless you have an Improvement with "Doubles Sacrifice" checked.

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Right, but I'm wondering if having two such improvements means x4 culture. Otherwise the bonus isn't helpful because the generic Arena does just that. I know we had a list around here of which effects were cumulative but I can't find it.

It just occurred to me that only enslaved units can be sacrificed. That's obviously not going to work.

WildWeazel said:

I know we had a list around here of which effects were cumulative but I can't find it.

Click to expand...

It's RIGHT HERE.

Best,

Oz

So it does stack. Perhaps a free building that gives culture plus double sacrifice is a decent bonus, although since only enslaved units can be sacrificed that doesn't seem all that "creative".

This is informative for me. Great chart. Aren't flag units 'sacrificed'? Or am I thinking of something else?

Hum, your ideia as sparked the concept of Master Of Orion II trait "Creative" to be aplied into a Civ mod, humm...hum....

Balthasar said:

This is informative for me. Great chart. Aren't flag units 'sacrificed'? Or am I thinking of something else?

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"Capture The Flag" & "Reverse Capture The Flag," my friend.

-Oz

WildWeazel said:

It just occurred to me that only enslaved units can be sacrificed. That's obviously not going to work.

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Wrong a half. Captured units and the 2nd unit in the units_32.pcx can be sacrificed.

In standard game there's a worker in the pcx position 2. It can be sacrificed (1) and it can be traded (2).
For the (1) example, please, take a look into the HereticCata's "My Mod" - there's a great artist which can be sacrificed for 200 culture points, of course, it can be traded (unit is autoproduced). For the (2) - I didn't see much it been used, but it's a theoretical mercenary usage: for example, if there's a "mercenary civ", it can trade another civ a unit, which can be upgraded to a proper one. Proper one can be upgraded even more, so these mercenaries will always be up to date.

The only thing I do not understand (Steph told about it, probably, it's a feature from his editor) - how to upgrade a (unit) to (unit1 for Civ1) and (unit2 for Civ2) - I see there's a single "Upgrade to" option in standard editor (I use Steph's editor for special purposes which cannot be done using the standard one).

So if someone wants to have mercenaries in his mod - that's the possible way. It doesn't work 100% for me since I'm not sure yet whether I want a religious guy to spread a religion -> cultural expansion, or the "great artist" for the same purpose.

Wolfshade said:

The only thing I do not understand (Steph told about it, probably, it's a feature from his editor) - how to upgrade a (unit) to (unit1 for Civ1) and (unit2 for Civ2) - I see there's a single "Upgrade to" option in standard editor (I use Steph's editor for special purposes which cannot be done using the standard one).

Click to expand...

Unless I misunderstood the question, this is very simple trick used from the very beginning of modding.

If you want :
Civilization A can upgrade Unit 0 to Unit A.
Civilization B can upgrade Unit 0 to Unit B.

You need to:

Make Unit 0 upgrades to Unit A, Unit A to Unit B.
UnitA is available to Civilization A and not to B.
UnitB is available to Civilization B and not to A.

When Civ A will upgrade an Unit 0, it will get an Unit A.
When Civ B will upgrade an Unit 0, it will get an Unit B.

Expanding on that, if you make Unit B upgrades to Unit C (available to A and not B) and Unit C to Unit D (available to B and not A) :
When Civ A will upgrade an Unit A, it will get an Unit C.
When Civ B will upgrade an Unit B, it will get an Unit D.

Etc., etc.

Wolfshade said:

and[/B] the 2nd unit in the units_32.pcx can be sacrificed.

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Uhm, I don't think that's correct. First, the order in units_32 is arbitrary and not necessarily correlated to the order in the BIQ, so if anything it would be the second unit in the BIQ. Second, there was a theory a while back that the second unit in the BIQ was able to to be traded, but that was debunked. Still, I'll take another look at his mod and see what he did. I'm sure that someone came up with culture units that didn't involve enslavement.

I've been told that, in order to be traded, a unit has to be designated as the default capturable unit (rules -> general settings). It just happens to be the worker in the default game which happens to be the second spot in the units list, etc..

WildWeazel, I just saw this fact. Probably, this can be explored deeper, but I did not so I can't provide an additional info, sorry.

Supa said:

Unless I misunderstood the question, this is very simple trick used from the very beginning of modding.

If you want :
Civilization A can upgrade Unit 0 to Unit A.
Civilization B can upgrade Unit 0 to Unit B.

You need to:

Make Unit 0 upgrades to Unit A, Unit A to Unit B.
UnitA is available to Civilization A and not to B.
UnitB is available to Civilization B and not to A.

When Civ A will upgrade an Unit 0, it will get an Unit A.
When Civ B will upgrade an Unit 0, it will get an Unit B.

Expanding on that, if you make Unit B upgrades to Unit C (available to A and not B) and Unit C to Unit D (available to B and not A) :
When Civ A will upgrade an Unit A, it will get an Unit C.
When Civ B will upgrade an Unit B, it will get an Unit D.

Click to expand...

My English seems to be really poor , but, anyway, smart people do understand me and even answer my newbie questions. Thank you very much, this is a true answer I looked for!

I think it's the unit in second place in the editor, not the pcx.

Quinzy said:

I think it's the unit in second place in the editor, not the pcx.

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That's my understanding as well.

Best,

Oz

Balthasar said:

I've been told that, in order to be traded, a unit has to be designated as the default capturable unit (rules -> general settings). It just happens to be the worker in the default game which happens to be the second spot in the units list, etc..

Click to expand...

That was how I understood it. I'm not sure that this is even relevant to my question though, as enslavement, capturing, and trading are all different functions. What exactly is the requirement to be sacrificed? Must the unit be the result of enslavement, or will any "foreign" unit do?