1.18 Civilizations - Brainstorming

[Gahan]

How about discussing about new civilizations' symbols? These are my opinions
Maybe there are much better symbols than them

▶ Asian Civs -
Burma: Green Peacock
Java: Surya Majapahit (existing Indonesian symbol in Civ Series) or Crossed Krises (symbol of weapon like Turks)
Kushan: Kanishka Monogram (Tamgha) on his Gold Coins
Malay: Crescent and 14-Point Star or Crossed Krises
Vietnam: Hoan Kiem Turtle

▶ Middle Eastern, African Civs -
Assyria: Sun of Shamash or Winged Sun (Ashur's Symbol)
Hittite: Hittite Sun Disk
Nubia: Nubian Basket Pattern (in Civ 6) or Nubian Pyramid (symbol of structure like Khmer and Spain)
Swahili: Dhow or Two Cloves (like Flag of Zanzibar Sultanate and Zanzibar CS in Civ 6)

▶ European, American Civs -
Celt: Celtic Knot (already we have it)
Rus': Tryzub (someone already suggested this)

Flag - trident a-la Ukraine coat of arms, see spoiler. Left Yaroslav and Mstyslav are the best, IMO.

Spoiler :

View attachment 642904

Sweden: Three Crowns
Toltec: Teotihuacan Ocelot (someone already made it)

The flag, which I made myself based on the Teotihuacan Ocelot (could use an actual graphic designer to refine it maybe)

View attachment 642896​

 

[Steb]

@Leoreth what do you intend to pick as the main scope of the Nubia civ, especially in terms of UHVs? So far as I can see there are 4 main periods of Nubian independence:
- Kerma (2500-1500 BC)
- Kush (1000 BC-500 AD)
- Christian kingdoms of Nobatia, Makuria, and Alodia (500-1500)
- Sennar/Funj/Blue Sultanate (1500-1800)

Are you thinking of making it an ancient-focused civ with only the first two, with possible respawns representing the later periods? Or will the "main" incarnation of the civ also include the medieval Christian kingdoms, or the Christian kingdoms + the sultanate period?

 

[Leoreth]

I was thinking about including a third goal that covers the Christian period, but it depends on whether I can find something that is interesting enough.

 

[Krieger-FS]

Most of the studies that I’ve read about these Nubian polities point that until mid-18th century there was a distinct Nubian character for these societies that represented some form of continuity since ancient times; it was only when a more orthodox vision of Islam gained foot in the later Funj period that this condition changed. So, from a historical point of view, I’d argue for a representation that also includes Sennar/Funj/Blue Sultanate, but we obviously need to have interesting UHVs to do it. If I can think about something, I'll post here.

 

[1SDANi]

Most of the studies that I’ve read about these Nubian polities point that until mid-18th century there was a distinct Nubian character for these societies that represented some form of continuity since ancient times; it was only when a more orthodox vision of Islam gained foot in the later Funj period that this condition changed. So, from a historical point of view, I’d argue for a representation that also includes Sennar/Funj/Blue Sultanate, but we obviously need to have interesting UHVs to do it. If I can think about something, I'll post here.

If any nation west of Persia had the perfect location for a game-long UHV ala China, it's Nubia. You're right there for the expansionism of Egypt, Greece, Rome, Arabia, the Mamluks, and the Ottomans. Assuming compelling conditions can be thought up for a game long UHV, that is.

 

[Steb]

Interestingly, a game that is intended to span from 2500 BC to AD 1700 or 1800 would actually be the longest in terms of game years, surpassing China! Which could be good (potential for unique UHVs, etc.) or bad (risk of making the game boring, and overlap with Ethiopia which is right next to it).

I'm inclined to think it's a risky proposition, considering that Nubia wouldn't be a very expansionist civ. I think I'd leave the longevity-based UHV to Ethiopia, which has a better claim to continuity, and focus Nubia on the ancient world and conflict with Egypt and Mediterranean powers, although I'd extend the game to at least the Early Middle Ages to contrast with other ancient civs and make players deal with Christianity and the rise of the Arabs.

The sultanate period can be a respawn or just regular dynamic names but outside the UHV focus.

 

[1SDANi]

Interestingly, a game that is intended to span from 2500 BC to AD 1700 or 1800 would actually be the longest in terms of game years, surpassing China! Which could be good (potential for unique UHVs, etc.) or bad (risk of making the game boring, and overlap with Ethiopia which is right next to it).

I'm inclined to think it's a risky proposition, considering that Nubia wouldn't be a very expansionist civ. I think I'd leave the longevity-based UHV to Ethiopia, which has a better claim to continuity, and focus Nubia on the ancient world and conflict with Egypt and Mediterranean powers, although I'd extend the game to at least the Early Middle Ages to contrast with other ancient civs and make players deal with Christianity and the rise of the Arabs.

The sultanate period can be a respawn or just regular dynamic names but outside the UHV focus.

Yeah, I'm kind of blanking on interesting long term UHV ideas too.

 

[Dracosolon]

What about leaderheads? I checked a bunch of mods (RFC Greek World, Civ Reborn, History Rewritten and Rise of Mankind).

Javanese and Malays - Java would get Hayam Wuruk and Suharto? Malaysia would get Dharmasetu and could add Tun Perak:

Credits: History Rewritten?

Vietnamese - The Trung Sisters are an interesting if perhaps gimmicky choice considering there's two of them. There are later options - Chieu Hoang, Le Loi, and Ho Chi Minh:

Credits: Ekmek, Saibotlieh (as "Jingu"), cfkane (as "Liu Bei"), Refar/Ekmek/Kao'chai?

Burmese - A decent selection of LHs, with Anawrahta, Shin Sawbu and Bayinnaung:

Credits: History Rewritten?, Saibotlieh (as "Lieu Ye"), cybrxkhan.

Kushans - Two LHs for Kanishka I and one that's been repurposed for Kadphises I:

Credits: cybrxkhan, History Rewritten?, History Rewritten?

Swahili - Shirazi and Bargash (Civ Reborn also has a "Dawud" leader but that's one a bit distracting as a repurposed Lal from Alpha Centauri):

Credits: History Rewritten (as "Yusuf")?, Civ Reborn?

Nubians - Piye and Merkurios:

Credits: Xyth, cybrxkhan/Nitram15.

Assyrians - Gotta be Ashurbanipal, right? Here he is without and with his cool hat:

Credits: RFC Greek World?, History Rewritten?

Hittites - Three versions of Suppiluliuma I of varying quality, and one of Hattusili I/Mursilis (considering the civ's lifespan one LH is probably enough):

Credits: Esnaz, History Rewritten?, Rise of Mankind?, Novator.

Celts - Brennus and Boudica already have official LHs, not sure if more are needed. There exists a variety of Celtic LHs on the database, including various Robert the Bruce.

(cont)

 

[Dracosolon]

Swedes & Vikings - The Vikings would give up Gustav Adolf, obviously, and could get Christian IV for the Renaissance Era. The Swedish could get more LHs, problem with the two below (Gustav Vasa and Karl XII) is that they're both from the Renaissance as well (also Karl XII looks a bit too much like Washington still).

Credits: The Capo, IgorS, RFC Europe?

Kievan Rus - There's a good number of quality LHs like those below (Yaroslav I, Mstislav I, Alexander Nevsky, Bogdan Khmelnysky), though the first three are kind of close timeline-wise:

Credits: The Capo/IgorS, Ramzay1945, Ramzay1945, Ramzay1945.

Toltecs - Two widely different LHs - one of them could be Atlatl Cauac (they've both been used for him in mods):

Credits: Civ Reborn?, History Rewritten?

 

[Steb]

Javanese and Malays - Java would get Hayam Wuruk and Suharto? Malaysia would get Dharmasetu and could add Tun Perak:

Dharmasetu is a leaderhead right now, but maybe he could be replaced/renamed? In my score rankings I omitted him entirely, because my understanding is that he's Javanese, but he ruled the Srivijaya Empire, which is associated with the Malays. The Shailendra dynasty to which he belongs was the ruling family of Mataram on Java, but also came to control Srivijaya for some time. There's speculation that this dynasty was Malay but it's more likely that it was natively Javanese. In any case, it's a complicated situation. I decided to put Srivijaya rulers only in the Malay column and avoid those that ruled from Java.

Anyway, apart from having maybe been involved in building Borobudur, it doesn't look like Dharmasetu is that major a figure, at least judging by his Wikipedia page. There's plenty of other Malay leaders to use instead, possibly using the same leaderhead. To represent Srivijaya, its founder, Sri Jayanasa, might be the most obvious choice. Cudamani Warmadewa, who repelled a Javanese invasion, might be another.

Tun Perak is a great choice to represent the later Malacca Sultanate.

 

[Si No Hay Paz]

For civs that have a similar starting location and but different times, would it be possible to create one civ with multiple eras in which its possible to get a UHV? For example, say we have the Valley of Mexico civs. Right now there are 3 or 4 civs I've seen suggested - Olmecs, Teotihuacan/Toltecs, Aztecs, Mexico (Aztec Respawn). Could they be combined as one civ that spans that whole time, rising and falling like China tends to do? And then have a shot at different sets of historical victories in each of a few different eras - say, each civ gets three sets of historical victories. The Classical Historical Victory conditions for this Mesoamerican civ could include the Olmec and Teotihuacan periods, Medieval conditions for the Toltecs and Aztecs, and Modern or Global era conditions for Mexico. It could also work for Egypt, giving it Ancient goals for the Old-New Kingdoms, Classical goals for the Ptolemaic period, and Medieval goals for the Mamlukes, or with Indonesia to avoid splitting it. Maybe this could help keep the amount of civ slots down and reduce the number of fast, temporary civs that won't respawn?

 

[Dracosolon]

I'm not sure I understand, wouldn't something similar already be achieved with various civs that only spawn if their predecessor is dead/unstable?

I also believe the number of slots isn't that much of a problem anymore since the new system for handling them dynamically force collapses if there are too many civs alive.

 

[Leoreth]

The number of slots is already constant - at this point there is not much of a difference between having a civilization respawn or having a new civilization spawn. What even is the difference between a new civilization and a respawned civilization that has different goals and potentially even uniques?

Suggesting using respawns as workarounds seems to come up a lot and I am never sure why it's such a pervasive thought that this is preferable. In my view, it is much simpler (from an implementation perspective, but also from a player perspective) to say that this is a specific civilization and it has these goals (and uniques, and historical areas, and leaders, etc) associated with it instead of changing all of these things under the hood.

 

[Dracosolon]

Suggesting using respawns as workarounds seems to come up a lot and I am never sure why it's such a pervasive thought that this is preferable.

I suspect the impression that it's something of a grey area between a proper new civ and a mere continuation of another civ leads people to take it as a good compromise when the case for a full civ is weak. But this is the first time I've seen it used for one that you already plan to include as a full one anyway (the Toltecs).

 

[Kott]

Maybe it is about hopping from one civ/respawn to another without dealing with downtime between them?

 

[freethink]

I was thinking about including a third goal that covers the Christian period, but it depends on whether I can find something that is interesting enough.

Maybe a goal could be:
Win a war against an Islamic Civilization
Kill 50 units by 1800

 

[freethink]

Another could be- control 10 Christian cities

 

[Dracosolon]

I think this is a more appropriate thread.

IIRC the CSA is already a dynamic name for America if they adopt Slavery. As for making it a full-fledged civ, I doubt that's anywhere near a possibility for the reason you've mentioned: they only lasted a couple of years.

 

[Blue Sun]

Ok, I will delete my post and paste it there.

 

[haebi]

Minoan (Crete)
Would be great for early civs and hist victory...
UB: Labyrinth (Palace; + 1 Hammer , + 1 Gold)
UU: Minoan Doubleaxe (starts with city defence), Trader (cheap, can conduct trade missions)

Hist. Goals:
1. Acquire 1 Wine and 1 copper by 1500 bc
2. built aspanda palce by 1500 bc (aspanda no mere requires zoroastiasm but hellenic poltheism)
3. got 1000 gold be 1000 bc

Just an idea...
Adore yor work!
thx