13 year old girl dies from gas poisoning--EU above all.

[Kyriakos]

Well, i read a few hours ago than a 13-year old girl died during her sleep, from inhaling poisonous gas from the coal-burner her mother used in an apartment on the outskirts of this city...

The family was Serbian, and i suppose they came here some years ago with the false hope of a better life. Instead the child is now dead due to the electricity being cut in their apartment by the glorius Gauleiter government we have, forcing them to resort to dangerous mechanisms like coal-heating in make-shift heaters, so as to not freeze to death in this horrible winter that will not end soon...

The article is in Greek (maybe you can use google translator, despite its faults), and is found in the Greek Yahoo site. 1

This is not the first case of such a death. It is the first one in Thessalonike, but before that some other kids had died in the same way, due to trying to heat themselves without being an economic burden to their families which are effectively slaves of the dictatorship we now have here. In this last case, though, the Serbian mother and daughter did not even have electricity anymore due to a cut (they obviously could not pay the bill). So they paid with the child's life instead.

What do you think? Will recovery happen with yet more descent into the abyss of misery? Maybe some people will recover after their death.

 

[Synobun]

Poverty is a pretty big deal in most parts of the world, including Greece.

 

[Grisu]

A tragic incident, without doubt.

But I'm a bit baffled as to how the EU is somehow to blame for this (and how the Nazis fit into the picture)

 

[Kyriakos]

A tragic incident, without doubt.

But I'm a bit baffled as to how the EU is somehow to blame for this (and how the Nazis fit into the picture)

Hint: this never happened before the economic crisis and the great help which followed it (and by now lead to the extrapolation of both the actual debt and unemployment). The GDP has fallen by 1/4. So yeah, the EU has a little to do with what is going on, and so do its Gauleiters of this region.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

Because before the economic crisis Greece managed to ignore its debt problem (including accounting tricks with the help of Goldman Sachs).
I agree with you that the current approach to supporting Greece isn't satisfactory, but let's not forget that the beginning of this whole mess was your irresponsible government. The EU is basically just not willing to absolve the Greek people form their own responsibility for their own government by bailing you out or by allowing you to default and leave the Euro whereas providing sufficient financial support in the aftermath (which I think would be the most humane option for the Greek people).
Right now, Greece is not able to default and leave the Euro as it has not the means to support itself and it is IMO fair to say that this is your own doing. But the EU is only willing to help if you pay debts and stay in the Euro. So right now the EU is a net benefit for Greece, just not the one it needs. But it is the only one it got.

 

[Kyriakos]

By now it is not a question of whether this country will leave the common currency (cause it will, in the end). It is more of a question of how much of it will be plundered (or attempted to be plundered) before hell breaks loose. Personally i fear that things are being led to a very nasty EU collapse.

I hope that the government will change soon, not because there are many better options, but due to the current government being hugely detrimental to the people of this country, including marching some of them to their own death by trying to leech their remaining life.

 

[Grisu]

Hint: this never happened before the economic crisis and the great help which followed it (and by now lead to the extrapolation of both the actual debt and unemployment). The GDP has fallen by 1/4. So yeah, the EU has a little to do with what is going on, and so do its Gauleiters of this region.

well yes, Greece mismanaged for years if not decades and now it blew up. That's tragic and very bad for the greek people but hardly the fault of the EU. Plus, your almost obsessive use of nazi terms, in areas that have nothing to do with Nazis, makes it hard to take the posts serious to begin with...

 

[Kyriakos]

Well, the term Gauleiter, along with other nazi parallelisms, has been used to describe the EU in the EU parliament itself, so i suppose it is not unheard of...

As for the mismanagement, that is a very simplistic way to describe it. What is less simplistic, though, is to refer to the actual state of things, including the collapse of the GDP and the deaths resulting from it, counting suicides as well as the results of people trying to make do in what this country became under the regime we have and its handlers from outside.

Try to imagine Switzerland losing 1/4 of its GDP in 5 years. Maybe it would no longer exist as a country.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

It is also not unheard of that some of the EU members of parliament make use of shamelessly dumb populist rhetoric.
In fact - I recently read an article saying that after the next EU parliament election it is feared that a sort of EU-equivalence of the tea-party could conquer up to one third of the seats. It would consist of several national Eu-critical parties (mostly far right) combining forces. Though that is only a scenario so far, as those parties have also many differences. The beginning though already happened with French and Netherlands right parties moving to combine forces in the EU parliament.

 

[Grisu]

Well, the term Gauleiter, along with other nazi parallelisms, has been used to describe the EU in the EU parliament itself, so i suppose it is not unheard of...

and that UKIP guy's hard to take serious as well...

As for the mismanagement, that is a very simplistic way to describe it. What is less simplistic, though, is to refer to the actual state of things, including the collapse of the GDP and the deaths resulting from it, counting suicides as well as the results of people trying to make do in what this country became under the regime we have andits handlers from outside.

and "girl dies from gas poisoning -> EU to blame" isn't simplistic? I mean after it was found that greece could in no way pay for the debt it made, what should have been done instead of arguing that greece needs somehow reform their hosehold to not make debts it can't pay?

Try to imagine Switzerland losing 1/4 of its GDP in 5 years. Maybe it would no longer exist as a country.

Of course that would be bad, that's not what I'm arguing at all. What I'm challenging is that somehow the EU's supposed to be to blame for all of greece's failings or for this incident in particular. I mean, instead of constantly blaming the EU what would your magic recipe have been to prevent all the GDP drop, suicides, etc? The thing is, in the state greece is/was in there really were no 'good' options.

 

[GoodSarmatian]

By now it is not a question of whether this country will leave the common currency (cause it will, in the end). It is more of a question of how much of it will be plundered (or attempted to be plundered) before hell breaks loose. Personally i fear that things are being led to a very nasty EU collapse.

Greece has ben plundering Greece for quite sime time not. It's not all somebody else's fault and if you want to blame this tragedy on someone you should start with your own government and it's corrupt predecessors who cooked the books to get the Euro. The EU is currently doing a very poor job getting Greece out of this mess, but it get you into it.

It is also not unheard of that some of the EU members of parliament make use of shamelessly dumb populist rhetoric.
In fact - I recently read an article saying that after the next EU parliament election it is feared that a sort of EU-equivalence of the tea-party could conquer up to one third of the seats. It would consist of several national Eu-critical parties (mostly far right) combining forces. Though that is only a scenario so far, as those parties have also many differences. The beginning though already happened with French and Netherlands right parties moving to combine forces in the EU parliament.

The thin with this kind of party coalitions is that they tend to dismantle themselve. by their very own nature they tend to attract people who don't really care for cooperation with other countries. There already was a far-right coalition and it didn't last long.

I predict that history will repeat itself. First as a farce, then as a farce.

 

[Kyriakos]

Of course that would be bad, that's not what I'm arguing at all. What I'm challenging is that somehow the EU's supposed to be to blame for all of greece's failings or for this incident in particular. I mean, instead of constantly blaming the EU what would your magic recipe have been to prevent all the GDP drop, suicides, etc? The thing is, in the state greece is/was in there really were no 'good' options.

Maybe because without the common currency this would not have happened? Maybe because it is sort of genocidal to cut people's wages to 1/3 of what they were (while at the same time keep paying tens of thousands of euros to useless parasites and their friends)?

It was an age of faith, when nobles spoke of EU heaven. And the people lived in EU hell. (EU quote; that is the better EU, ie Europa Universalis)...

 

[Terxpahseyton]

The thin with this kind of party coalitions is that they tend to dismantle themselve. by their very own nature they tend to attract people who don't really care for cooperation with other countries. There already was a far-right coalition and it didn't last long.

I predict that history will repeat itself. First as a farce, then as a farce.

Good point and nice finish Still they are already obstructing the parliament with refusing to discuss issues and making everything an issue of principle, with shouting slurs and shaming those pro-EU. So still worrying. Surely people have the right to elect parties opposed to the EU. But when they actually have to do EU work it is as productive as the tea party is productive - that is productivity is understood as obstructionism.
Though I think we can be glad that the Alternative for Germany party is the German one benefiting from Anti-EU sentiments. As it is not really anti-EU but just strongly opposes the current reason of state with regards to the Euro. Which i still believe to be a sound economic point of view on their part. So I may actually vote for them at the EU election. And they will never be brothers in arms with some of the other anti-EU parties.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

The thing is, in the state greece is/was in there really were no 'good' options.

I disagree.
Debt default.
Euro drop.
And financial support by the EU after that is done so no one has to starve, freeze, die for a lack of medical resources. Combine this support with political demands for internal reform, a bit like right now, but without allowing for the most abhorring human suffering. It absolutely could have been done. It isn't because there is a sense of wanting the Greek people to pay for the misdoings of their government (instead of us paying for it) and Euro exits are viewed as a sacrilege

 

[Grisu]

I disagree.
Debt default.
Euro drop.
And financial support by the EU after that is done so no one has to starve, freeze, die for a lack of medical resources. Combine this support with political demands for internal reform, a bit like right now, but without allowing for the most abhorring human suffering. It absolutely could have been done. It isn't because there is a sense of wanting the Greek people to pay for the misdoings of their government (instead of us paying for it) and Euro exits are viewed as a sacrilege

well, I think our definitions of good differ a bit. Better than the present solution? Most likely, but in the state greece was in 'good' simply wasn't achievable short of getting the help of a fairy or something

 

[Virote_Considon]

When Greece finally starts implementing austerity measures and finally starts laying off many of its unneeded bloated civil service staff, then maybe such tragedies will stop.

But seeing as, several years after this financial crisis began, not one redundancy, layoff or firing has occurred in the bloated Greek civil service, it looks like they're going to keep themselves in depression for a long time coming.

 

[Kyriakos]

I guess I asked for this thread to be closed, cause it was a bad idea to start it. Not sure if it will get closed, but i am sure i should not have started it.

 

[Borachio]

I have a great deal of sympathy for people who die in poverty whoever is responsible for it.

However, to claim that the EU is to blame for Greece's plight is absurd logic. Did the EU force Greece to join the EU? I rather think it didn't. So even if the EU's actions are responsible, Greece still has no one to blame but itself.

I do have a rather simplistic view of responsibility generally, though. If I go out in the rain, I tend not to blame the rain for making me wet.

What are the Greek colonels doing now? Sitting on their hands? Where's a decent junta to be found when you need one?

 

[Terxpahseyton]

I guess I asked for this thread to be closed, cause it was a bad idea to start it. Not sure if it will get closed, but i am sure i should not have started it.

Well I am glad you did even if the title is a bit misguided and hope it won't get closed. This thread is not just about you personally anymore.

I do have a rather simplistic view of responsibility generally, though. If I go out in the rain, I tend not to blame the rain for making me wet.

Well it is simplistic, since rain is not able to make decisions. Why should I not be responsible for the offers I make? I think any mutual agreement is a matter of mutual responsibility.
Still, I don't think the EU acted in bad faith and intended to ruin Greece with the common currency so yes I agree that it is misguided for a Greek put the blame on the EU on account of it offering Greece to join the Euro.

well, I think our definitions of good differ a bit. Better than the present solution? Most likely, but in the state greece was in 'good' simply wasn't achievable short of getting the help of a fairy or something

Well I can agree with that.

Also, well, it seems I need to cut down on my usage of "well".

 

[Perfection]

In Minnesota we have a cold weather rule that prevents energy companies from shutting people down during winter months.