2020 US Election (Part Two)

[Takhisis]

The US system effectively forms its coalition ahead of the election instead of after the election.

i.e. primaries.

 

[Patine]

The US system effectively forms its coalition ahead of the election instead of after the election.

Eh, hoping for a third party is a pipe dream. At this point there are institutional and cultural barriers that make it literally impossible. If you want to move the Dems to the left, the way to do so is to do what the DSA is doing: organize a ready-made, well-trained volunteer force, and offer it to viable left-wing candidates in exchange for toeing the DSA party line. Usually all it takes is a few dozen enthusiastic, experienced, and committed volunteers backing a credible, composed candidate to win a primary. And by doing so, you create an actual bloc within the dems who is loyal to the DSA, who can be expected to move en masse to compel votes on desired policy, it provides a useful and credible threat to centrists: vote for our policies or we'll sic our volunteer army on your district and oust you too, and all without needing to create a ballot line, hold primaries, or convince committed voters to leave their ancestral party for some unknown, alien entity.

This has been the explicit DSA strategy since 2018, and so far it's had some modest success in DC, NY, and Chicago, with major coups this year in NY, DC, Austin, and Tennessee.

i.e. primaries.

It's still a closed system. And, as everyone knows, a closed system must either be forced open and exposed to a bigger, open, cyclical system or it will eventually die of heat death or choking on it's own wastes.

 

[Drakle]

I'm an outside observer (Australia), but the way Americans act about this election, frankly seems insane. To preface I will say that in Australia I'm a Green-Labor voter. And Australia if you don't know, has ranked-choice voting, so I'm not wasting my vote on the Greens. And the Australian greens because of that, are an actual political party instead of being the complete dumbasses and crazies that make up the US Greens.

But all this crying about Biden is insane. The US in recent history has had both of its most recent Republicans share two factors.

1. Being elected by a minority of the popular vote, because of idiot leftists voting third-party/staying home, and the electoral college.
2. Those Republican Presidents being absolutely awful, killing a ton of people, and setting back leftwards progress.

And there are people seriously trying third time lucky? Wow if only we keep sabotaging, we will finally get a perfect magical leftist, who will somehow make everything perfect .. through the power of magical thinking. And not just get obstructed even harder and get blamed for everything.

This election isn't about policy. It is choosing if the US gets even some democracy anymore, or not. The US system is inherently rigged against progress. Even if the filibuster is abolished, and Democrats get lucky in these Senate races the 51st Senator will be ... Manchin. or some other red-state Democrat. Biden as President isn't a legislator anyway but will be lucky if the Senate sends him even a mild improvement on the ACA to sign. Chanting, Medicare For all, is basically just saying 'I'm completely delusional about how government works'. Also, the policy as actually written is not how healthcare works here in Australia, or in other countries, you are supposedly copying. We have private insurance, and the government does not pay for everything.

If Trump wins. The SC goes fully Republican. The census rigging will take effect, and reduce the vote of Sunbelt states. Gerrymandering will be enshrined and expanded in many states. And if the VRA gets gutted even further, numerous minority guaranteed seats can be eliminated, making many states certain to only send Republicans to office. Mass voter disenfranchisement will keep happening and become worse. Crap like the post office will keep happening.

All while Republicans just literally can not govern. Imagine what happens if a COVID vaccine is impossible, or takes years. What about climate change? What about literally any foreign crisis?

 

[Ironsided]

To govern, a party or group of parties need to get 51% of legislative seats. The US system effectively forms its coalition ahead of the election instead of after the election. If the US were to have multiple political parties, we would expect them to form the same coalitions that the Democrats and Republicans represent now; excepting possibly an coalition of center left and center right which due to how the US electorate is structured, is likely to lead to a one party dominance like post-war Japan.

This is parroting of party line propaganda portraying the US system to be pragmatic and practical. In a multiple party system, you negotiate and form coalitions after the elections and to do that the parties have to compromise. To give a little consideration. That is not happening in the US. It is basically a winner takes all situation and could not be clearer in the example of last primaries that formed the failed Democratic bid in 2016 and now repeating itself in front of our eyes in 2020. The progressive wing has been one of the largest factions and growing and they get nothing tangible at all. Useless Task-forces and condescension. The non-vision and non-agenda of the Biden/Kamala bid makes me fearful Trump may turn this around.

Therefore, the largest political block in America are non-voters and the second largest are undecided. Your ‘options’ in America are groomed by money in politics and corporate interests to a degree where ordinary people no longer view the democratic process as democratic but as a game where they are not really participating but at every turn fill the role of the sacrificial pawn.

 

[Drakle]

This is parroting of party line propaganda portraying the US system to be pragmatic and practical. In a multiple party system, you negotiate and form coalitions after the elections and to do that the parties have to compromise. To give a little consideration. That is not happening in the US. It is basically a winner takes all situation and could not be clearer in the example of last primaries that formed the failed Democratic bid in 2016 and now repeating itself in front of our eyes in 2020. The progressive wing has been one of the largest factions and growing and they get nothing tangible at all. Useless Task-forces and condescension. The non-vision and non-agenda of the Biden/Kamala bid makes me fearful Trump may turn this around.

Therefore, the largest political block in America are non-voters and the second largest are undecided. Your ‘options’ in America are groomed by money in politics and corporate interests to a degree where ordinary people no longer view the democratic process as democratic but as a game where they are not really participating but at every turn fill the role of the sacrificial pawn.

Harris had the second most Liberal voting record in the Senate, and votes with Warren and Bernie about 90% of the time. And Biden has already signed onto numerous legislation which has no chance of passing the Senate, even if Democrats win a modern political landslide in 2020.

Also the 'progressive' wing got it ass kicked by Biden. It is clear that 2016 wasn't a yay socialism, but a protest vote against Clinton. And she still won the 2016 primary, comfortably.

 

[Patine]

This is parroting of party line propaganda portraying the US system to be pragmatic and practical. In a multiple party system, you negotiate and form coalitions after the elections and to do that the parties have to compromise. To give a little consideration. That is not happening in the US. It is basically a winner takes all situation and could not be clearer in the example of last primaries that formed the failed Democratic bid in 2016 and now repeating itself in front of our eyes in 2020. The progressive wing has been one of the largest factions and growing and they get nothing tangible at all. Useless Task-forces and condescension. The non-vision and non-agenda of the Biden/Kamala bid makes me fearful Trump may turn this around.

Therefore, the largest political block in America are non-voters and the second largest are undecided. Your ‘options’ in America are groomed by money in politics and corporate interests to a degree where ordinary people no longer view the democratic process as democratic but as a game where they are not really participating but at every turn fill the role of the sacrificial pawn.

This is very true. Also, another thing overlooked here. Where is the vaunted "American left," to stand, or to gain, or to advance, in a Presidential race of a hard-right ticket - top and bottom - vs. a centre-right ticket - top and bottom? The hoodwink is pulled again, and so many Americans have, once again, taken it hook, line, and sinker - and think there's a possibility of real change or reform - or betterment, at all.

 

[Patine]

Harris had the second most Liberal voting record in the Senate, and votes with Warren and Bernie about 90% of the time. And Biden has already signed onto numerous legislation which has no chance of passing the Senate, even if Democrats win a modern political landslide in 2020.

Also the 'progressive' wing got it ass kicked by Biden. It is clear that 2016 wasn't a yay socialism, but a protest vote against Clinton.

Harris was a face of the law-and-order police state so hated by the BLM movement as a prosecutor. And, it seems you, like so many others, still believe the major party primaries are at all representative of the will of the rank-and-file of the party, and are any sort of a popular selection mechanism. The fact that they're "better," at that, purely comparatively, than the pre-1970's "smoke-filled room," Convention nominations hoodwinks a lot of Americans into believing they're fully sufficient, workable, and trustworthy in their races and results in that way. They're dead wrong...

 

[Drakle]

Harris was a face of the law-and-order police state so hated by the BLM movement as a prosecutor. And, it seems you, like so many others, still believe the major party primaries are at all representative of the will of the rank-and-file of the party, and are any sort of a popular selection mechanism. The fact that they're "better," at that, purely comparatively, than the pre-1970's "smoke-filled room," Convention nominations hoodwinks a lot of Americans into believing they're fully sufficient, workable, and trustworthy in their races and results in that way. They're dead wrong...

You mean the same Kamala Harris who refused to seek the death penalty for a cop killer, and had both the Democratic US Senators at the time and the Police Unions publicly condemn her.

The same Kamala Harris who greatly reduced drug prosecution leading to prison time, and diverted thousands away to non-prison alternatives, through Back on Track

The same Kamala Harris who refused to carry out the Three Strikes, unless the strike was a serious felony. Which stopped lots of people from going away for 25 to life, even when the crime was a misdemeanour, which happened before Harris.

The same Kamala Harris who introduced implicit bias programs to educate police.

The same Kamala Harris who made the California Department of Justice, the first statewide Law enforcement to start wearing body cameras.

The same Kamala Harris who secured billions more for California by taking on the mortgage firms for illegal foreclosures.

So you are telling me, that all that makes Kamala Harris a 'law and order' police state goon. Risking her career to take bold stances, and sticking to her guns when under serious pressure from powerful forces.

Also Need I remind everybody, that Bernie voted for the crime bill that people regard as the root of all evil.

And get over it. Bernie did better in 2016 and 2020, when it was less democratic, not more. Caucuses gave him much better results, that primaries which involved more people. And the Democratic Party has been eliminating these Caucuses anyway, making the system even more popular based. And Biden did far better in many states, than Clinton, even absent any changes.

 

[Patine]

You mean the same Kamala Harris who refused to seek the death penalty for a cop killer, and had both the Democratic US Senators at the time and the Police Unions publicly condemn her.

The same Kamala Harris who greatly reduced drug prosecution leading to prison time, and diverted thousands away to non-prison alternatives, through Back on Track

The same Kamala Harris who refused to carry out the Three Strikes, unless the strike was a serious felony. Which stopped lots of people from going away for 25 to life, even when the crime was a misdemeanour, which happened before Harris.

The same Kamala Harris who introduced implicit bias programs to educate police.

The same Kamala Harris who made the California Department of Justice, the first statewide Law enforcement to start wearing body cameras.

The same Kamala Harris who secured billions more for California by taking on the mortgage firms for illegal foreclosures.

So you are telling me, that all that makes Kamala Harris a 'law and order' police state goon. Risking her career to take bold stances, and sticking to her guns when under serious pressure from powerful forces.

Also Need I remind everybody, that Bernie voted for the crime bill that people regard as the root of all evil.

And get over it. Bernie did better in 2016 and 2020, when it was less democratic, not more. Caucuses gave him much better results, that primaries which involved more people. And the Democratic Party has been eliminating these Caucuses anyway, making the system even more popular based. And Biden did far better in many states, than Clinton, even absent any changes.

I do not share your optimistic (and naïve) appraisal of the situation.

 

[Drakle]

I do not share your optimistic (and naïve) appraisal of the situation.

Aka you don't have any facts, you just want to act hysterically. Also, I don't see how I have been optimistic. In my first post, I said the US is basically a borderline failed democracy, and that very little beyond pulling it back from the brink will happen, even with a large victory. If Biden doesn't carry the Senate than it is basically fudged. Which could happen. If he wins a 2012 style victory, and the Senate race coattails match (as they did in 2016), then no Senate majority. It is a massively uphill battle, which is why people like you need to help, instead of being hysterical ideologues.

Also, Bernie said that Harris would be the best VP pick for Biden. He very likely would have picked her as well, if he had won.

I suspect that a lot of you online Leftists if Bernie had won, would be crowing about how he betrayed them.

 

[EnglishEdward]

I rather think that Kamala Harris will be an asset to Joe Biden's campaign.

She will help bring out the female and non white vote.

And a much more serious vice-president candidate than Sarah Palin.

 

[Patine]

Aka you don't have any facts, you just want to act hysterically. Also, I don't see how I have been optimistic. In my first post, I said the US is basically a borderline failed democracy, and that very little beyond pulling it back from the brink will happen, even with a large victory. If Biden doesn't carry the Senate than it is basically ****ed. Which could happen. If he wins a 2012 style victory, and the Senate race coattails match (as they did in 2016), then no Senate majority. It is a massively uphill battle, which is why people like you need to help, instead of being hysterical ideologues.

Also, Bernie said that Harris would be the best VP pick for Biden. He very likely would have picked her as well, if he had won.

I suspect that a lot of you online Leftists if Bernie had won, would be crowing about how he betrayed them.

I do have facts. Good and plenty of them. Just because you don't agree or like the conclusions I have come to from the facts compared to yours, doesn't mean I am lacking them and it's all histrionics. Also, my political viewpoints and ideology are more complex and nuanced than typical "online (American) Leftists," and, I view having my ideology "decided," or "declared," for me, with no statement of my own or strong evidence to be the most despicable and lowly, and hardest to forgive, thing I endure on this (and other) forums - several other posters have done it before you, including @Cutlass in the most vicious, slanderous, and witch-hunting of attacks, just yesterday on "the Postal Service," thread. Even though I've only seen four posts of yours, you've already dropped immensely in any credibility or legitimacy from the default modicum I give new posters with just the one I quoted above.

 

[Drakle]

I do have facts. Good and plenty of them. Just because you don't agree or like the conclusions I have come to from the facts compared to yours, doesn't mean I am lacking them and it's all histrionics. Also, my political viewpoints and ideology are more complex and nuanced than typical "online (American) Leftists," and, I view having my ideology "decided," or "declared," for me, with no statement of my own or strong evidence to be the most despicable and lowly, and hardest to forgive, thing I endure on this (and other) forums - several other posters have done it before you, including @Cutlass in the most vicious, slanderous, and witch-hunting of attacks, just yesterday on "the Postal Service," thread. Even though I've only seen four posts of yours, you've already dropped immensely in any credibility or legitimacy from the default modicum I give new posters with just the one I quoted above.

Your facts don't mean **** unless you actually show them.

And yeah I get it. You are a crazy person online, who already has feuds with other people.

Moderator Action: This is attacking the person, not the post. Do not do this in future. ~ Arakhor

 

[Patine]

Your facts don't mean **** unless you actually show them.

And yeah I get it. You are a crazy person online, who already has feuds with other people.

Online feuds have the "tango," idiom, don't they? And you assume I'm crazy, because otherwise you can't accept the situation at hand. Another usage of slander rather actual debate. I haven't made up a character flaw or extremist ideology for you to dismiss your point-of-view and feel a "high horse superiority," - just because. You have already made up one of each for me, with no evidence, and based on contrivance and slander.

 

[Drakle]

Online feuds have the "tango," idiom, don't they? And you assume I'm crazy, because otherwise you can't accept the situation at hand. Another usage of slander rather actual debate. I haven't made up a character flaw or extremist ideology for you to dismiss your point-of-view and feel a "high horse superiority," - just because. You have already made up one of each for me, with no evidence, and based on contrivance and slander.

You haven't offered a single piece of argument. I can't have a actual debate, when the opposition is throwing a tantrum in the corner. You made a stupid claim, I refuted it with facts about Harris's career and the 2016-2020 primary process, and then you have been in non stop hysterics instead.

 

[Hrothbern]

You mean the same Kamala Harris who refused to seek the death penalty for a cop killer, and had both the Democratic US Senators at the time and the Police Unions publicly condemn her.

The same Kamala Harris who greatly reduced drug prosecution leading to prison time, and diverted thousands away to non-prison alternatives, through Back on Track

The same Kamala Harris who refused to carry out the Three Strikes, unless the strike was a serious felony. Which stopped lots of people from going away for 25 to life, even when the crime was a misdemeanour, which happened before Harris.

The same Kamala Harris who introduced implicit bias programs to educate police.

The same Kamala Harris who made the California Department of Justice, the first statewide Law enforcement to start wearing body cameras.

The same Kamala Harris who secured billions more for California by taking on the mortgage firms for illegal foreclosures.

So you are telling me, that all that makes Kamala Harris a 'law and order' police state goon. Risking her career to take bold stances, and sticking to her guns when under serious pressure from powerful forces.

Also Need I remind everybody, that Bernie voted for the crime bill that people regard as the root of all evil.

And get over it. Bernie did better in 2016 and 2020, when it was less democratic, not more. Caucuses gave him much better results, that primaries which involved more people. And the Democratic Party has been eliminating these Caucuses anyway, making the system even more popular based. And Biden did far better in many states, than Clinton, even absent any changes.

I think one of the major properties of more leftish people is that they are, relative to moderates or status quo people, inclined to think more systemic at the bigger picture level and many leftish people apply that abstract system purity to every detail.
This does not hurt at all as long as you are a spectator or an ivory tower scholar.

But as soon as you have to do something... you can run in severe operational issues.

Not, ofc, as long as you are on your own or acting for your own little world only....
not so much when you are in a small group where the intensive communication needed is part of your social life time expenditures anyway, and where in-group bonding from practical social needs can offset damage and gaps from discussions.

Operational issues get sharp and up to unbridgeable when the for national power needed agregation scale and resulting personal social distance becomes so big that you have to use "trust" within your group, within your fellowship.
And group governance decisions have to be taken based on "genuine acceptance" of group bargaining results.

This has always been an issue for leftish groups since they came into existence
After WW2 in the 60ies onward, however, something peculiar happens
The bonding element of the Messiah nature on that red horizon starts to pale... is too far away anyway... and more and more personal progressive identity culture becomes the major bonding element... the substream music, the festivals, the garment, the books you had to read, the bad things in the ever more visible widening world.
And just like the five kinds of shampoos we had, blond, brunette, fat or dry hair, anti-dandruff... we can make now our very individual choice between hundreds of shampoos.... that personal identity becoming like a high maintenance nurture fetish.
=> no bonding element anymore but an anti-bonding element.

When leftish people stay more vulnerable for this atomising than moderates and conservative right... leftish people will never see their agendas coming together in governance.

You end up practically as an appendix to the centre right... as an appendix functioning as safety valve when some steam has to be blown of from conservative rightwing excesses.

 

[Patine]

You haven't offered a single piece of argument. I can't have a actual debate, when the opposition is throwing a tantrum in the corner. You made a stupid claim, I refuted it with facts about Harris's career and the 2016-2020 primary process, and then you have been in non stop hysterics instead.

Actually, I have. It's scattered across numerous posts in this thread and others. I just hadn't yet gotten around to making a re-iteration before you jumped the gun, said I had no facts (I wasn't given much of a chance to present any), had my ideology disingenuously declared for me as a slander tactic, and then was called insane. Do you, at all, see how you come across to me, here?

 

[Ironsided]

Harris had the second most Liberal voting record in the Senate, and votes with Warren and Bernie about 90% of the time. And Biden has already signed onto numerous legislation which has no chance of passing the Senate, even if Democrats win a modern political landslide in 2020.

Also the 'progressive' wing got it ass kicked by Biden. It is clear that 2016 wasn't a yay socialism, but a protest vote against Clinton. And she still won the 2016 primary, comfortably.

Being liberal does little for progressives outside social identity issues like racism and lgbtq, but I know what you mean.

However, Harris is clearly not Bidens VP to please the progressive base. She is in because she is a political animal who ‘understands’ what the bought and sold Democratic leadership are about and that they gave her this position because of that. She will play along and certainly no more vote ‘with Bernie’ if inconvenient for the leadership. Kamala is very much like a younger Biden, a political careerist, with the present added superficial benefits of being of colour and female. They make a solid coherent pairing, just not one that will drive policy on behalf of ordinary people.

And after all, when the corporate Democratic leadership with full MSNBC, CNN, ABC backing whipped Butty, Klobuchar, Bloomberg and even dug up O’Rourke to end their campaigns and endorse and coalesce around Biden that fateful Monday before super Tuesday and every candidate except Warren was out; Biden surely kicked ass by being marginally ahead. And, there was nothing comfortable about Clintons win in 2016 either, if anything, it was even more shady.

 

[Lexicus]

I suspect that a lot of you online Leftists if Bernie had won, would be crowing about how he betrayed them.

Quite possible. Online Leftists I know are already saying Bernie betrayed them simply because he is supporting the Democratic ticket.

 

[Gorbles]

Online leftists I know aren't saying that at all. It's a funny ol' situation out there.