2020 US Election (Part Two)

[Timsup2nothin]

I mean calling an enemy "my enemy", instead of "my friend". And informing those voters truthfully about the issues, instead of fighting with one hand tied.

Cool, but I'm still curious how you plan to get rid of all those pesky voters.

 

[Zardnaar]

Cool, but I'm still curious how you plan to get rid of all those pesky voters.

And how they would win even if they did make such a party.

At best you have 5-15 % of the electorate in a system where the popular vote doesn't matter.

The Dems are trending left, it's a process that will take a while.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

And how they would win even if they did make such a party.

At best you have 5-15 % of the electorate in a system where the popular vote doesn't matter.

The Dems are trending left, it's a process that will take a while.

However you slice it, since there are about fifteen million people who demonstrably want to vote for Sanders in order to elect him you need to cut the other hundred and fifteen million by about a hundred million for him to win. Targeted virus that bypasses Sanders voters? A progressive gestapo guarding the polls? How is Inno suggesting we go about this?

 

[Zardnaar]

However you slice it, since there are about fifteen million people who demonstrably want to vote for Sanders in order to elect him you need to cut the other hundred and fifteen million by about a hundred million for him to win. Targeted virus that bypasses Sanders voters? A progressive gestapo guarding the polls? How is Inno suggesting we go about this?

Said it before but Sanders wouldn't do any better here.

At best he would be the co leader of the greens or the leader of his own party with 5-10% of the vote.

A 90s "big man" whose party fate is tightly bound to him personally.

If you waved a magic wand in 2016 Sanders and made USA proportional he would have the choice of supporting Hilary Clinton as president, letting Trump be president or going back to the polls and probably taking a drubbing.

Proportional voting won't magically give you a progressive government. It tends to give you slightly right and left of center.

 

[Patine]

LOL...I assume by "from the ground up" you mean we need to get rid of all those pesky voters that just wouldn't follow your insistent call to vote for Sanders.

I mean calling an enemy "my enemy", instead of "my friend". And informing those voters truthfully about the issues, instead of fighting with one hand tied.

More like the German National People's Party, German State Party, German People's Party, Stahlheim, Bavarian People's Party, Landbund, and even Centre Party that magically became Nazi votes in 1933, for all intents and purposes. U.S. Party Primaries have a similar insidious effect, that you vote for a candidate, and they drop out, and you don't actually have a say after that in which remaining candidate the delegates of the candidate you voted for go to. The same kind of screwy situation - and which makes the claim that final nominee has the "genuine support of the majority of party members," quite hard to swallow, in the end. Just like Der Fuhrer gaining absolute power on 33.7% of the popular vote...

 

[Timsup2nothin]

More like the German National People's Party, German State Party, German People's Party, Stahlheim, Bavarian People's Party, Landbund, and even Centre Party that magically became Nazi votes in 1933, for all intents and purposes. U.S. Party Primaries have a similar insidious effect, that you vote for a candidate, and they drop out, and you don't actually have a say after that in which remaining candidate the delegates of the candidate you voted for go to. The same kind of screwy situation - and which makes the claim that final nominee has the "genuine support of the majority of party members," quite hard to swallow, in the end. Just like Der Fuhrer gaining absolute power on 33.7% of the popular vote...

Usually...2016 being a notable exception...the first four contests are effective as a shake out system. Those four states consider it a sort of honor that they effectively determine who gets to stay in the race, and that theoretically makes up for the relatively tiny delegate numbers that get "misplaced" in the process.

 

[Patine]

Usually...2016 being a notable exception...the first four contests are effective as a shake out system. Those four states consider it a sort of honor that they effectively determine who gets to stay in the race, and that theoretically makes up for the relatively tiny delegate numbers that get "misplaced" in the process.

Still, it makes the nominees unrepresentative, and anyone who says "your candidate lost fair and square because the party voters said my candidate won," (like you) is being highly disingenuous and ignoring the completely truth of the situation. The Party Primary system today is that not that greatly more a of a show of who the actual party rank-and-file members want to be their nominees than the old "smoke-filled-room conventions," with only a small minority of States having actual Primary votes, and with the State Party Bosses basically deciding the delegates from all the others themselves. It's improved somewhat from those days - but not nearly as much as many people today make it out to have.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Still, it makes the nominees unrepresentative, and anyone who says "your candidate lost fair and square because the party voters said my candidate won," (like you) is being highly disingenuous and ignoring the completely truth of the situation. The Party Primary system today is that not that greatly more a of a show of who the actual party rank-and-file members want to be their nominees than the old "smoke-filled-room conventions," with only a small minority of States having actual Primary votes, and with the State Party Bosses basically deciding the delegates from all the others themselves. It's improved somewhat from those days - but not nearly as much as many people today make it out to have.

I just don't see the evidence for this "unrepresentative." At least not in any widespread form.

There is no way that any of the early drops could be presented as having wide enough support to be a truly representative nominee. They dropped early, and rightfully so.

That left (as it is intended to do) two candidates. One of those two has been consistently drubbed at the polls. I don't see any way to argue for "even so he would be more representative."

We can wish that Sanders actually were the more representative of the Democratic party, but I think it is pretty well clear that the Democratic party does not actually live up to that. We can really wish that Sanders was genuinely representative of the USian electorate as a whole, but it is pretty clear that the USian electorate as a whole doesn't even approach living up to that.

 

[Patine]

I just don't see the evidence for this "unrepresentative." At least not in any widespread form.

There is no way that any of the early drops could be presented as having wide enough support to be a truly representative nominee. They dropped early, and rightfully so.

That left (as it is intended to do) two candidates. One of those two has been consistently drubbed at the polls. I don't see any way to argue for "even so he would be more representative."

We can wish that Sanders actually were the more representative of the Democratic party, but I think it is pretty well clear that the Democratic party does not actually live up to that. We can really wish that Sanders was genuinely representative of the USian electorate as a whole, but it is pretty clear that the USian electorate as a whole doesn't even approach living up to that.

Perhaps you're speaking from the perspective of familiarity and the taking for granted of the institution. From an outside perspective, I can't possibly see how anything remotely representative could come of it. It seems, from every angle I view it, nonsensical that it actually represents the "will of the majority of party members." Many times, with people, nations, businesses, families, communities, institutions, etc. external views can much more clearly see flaws that are much too ingrained for the one in question to see on their own - something I tried three times to tell @Birdjaguar (as well as the fact that it is very rare for true, meaningful, and needed change to happen entirely from within and internal review alone).

 

[Berzerker]

Nope, just pointing out how ridiculous your committed contrarianism makes you look.

Why is it committed contrarianism to believe this woman accusing Biden of sexual assault and why are you comparing her to a cockroach?

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Perhaps you're speaking from the perspective of familiarity and the taking for granted of the institution. From an outside perspective, I can't possibly see how anything remotely representative could come of it. It seems, from every angle I view it, nonsensical that it actually represents the "will of the majority of party members." Many times, with people, nations, businesses, families, communities, institutions, etc. external views can much more clearly see flaws that are much too ingrained for the one in question to see on their own - something I tried three times to tell @Birdjaguar (as well as the fact that it is very rare for true, meaningful, and needed change to happen entirely from within and internal review alone).

I don't think I'm taking anything for granted about the system. I think I just have a more jaundiced view of the electorate...more jaundiced and more realistic. As much as I might wish they would be realistically represented by a humane, wise, forward thinking egalitarian I just know that there is nothing to indicate that such a person would be at all representative of the USian electorate.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

why are you comparing her to a cockroach?

I assume that asking this question, which is based on a grossly false premise, is another example of how your "committed contrarianism" forces you into obviously transparent efforts to be unpleasant. How's that working out for you?

 

[Patine]

I don't think I'm taking anything for granted about the system. I think I just have a more jaundiced view of the electorate...more jaundiced and more realistic. As much as I might wish they would be realistically represented by a humane, wise, forward thinking egalitarian I just know that there is nothing to indicate that such a person would be at all representative of the USian electorate.

If Jon Huntsman, Jr. and Christine Gregoire were the two parties' nominees, that would be as close as possible to humane, wise, forward thinking egalitarian candidates as comes to mind off the top of my head, with the caveout that each had to come from each major party. However, because they're both from way out West, they would have to balance there tickets with Easterners, and finding equally enlightened people on that half of the country seems somehow more difficult, despite the immensely greater population.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

If Jon Huntsman, Jr. and Christine Gregoire were the two parties' nominees, that would be as close as possible to humane, wise, forward thinking egalitarian candidates as comes to mind off the top of my head, with the caveout that each had to come from each major party. However, because they're both from way out West, they would have to balance there tickets with Easterners, and finding equally enlightened people on that half of the country seems somehow more difficult, despite the immensely greater population.

Not in any way disputing them as humane, wise, forward thinking, and egalitarian...do you really think they are 'representative of USians at large'? They sound, to me, a whole lot more like the best of us rather than like the most of us.

 

[Berzerker]

I assume that asking this question, which is based on a grossly false premise, is another example of how your "committed contrarianism" forces you into obviously transparent efforts to be unpleasant. How's that working out for you?

Why is it a grossly false premise? A woman accused Biden of sexual assault and you compared her to ex-girlfriends 'popping out of the woodwork' like cockroaches.

 

[Patine]

Not in any way disputing them as humane, wise, forward thinking, and egalitarian...do you really think they are 'representative of USians at large'? They sound, to me, a whole lot more like the best of us rather than like the most of us.

Well, if you want to do it that way, each major party would have to have THREE separate GE tickets - the humane, wise, forward thinking, and egalitarian ticket for each, and the base, populist, rabble-rousing, tell-them-what-they-want-to-here ticket for each, and the "Establishment," ticket for each. One ticket nominated for each party at each election I think is what is becoming insufficient, perhaps, to be representative.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Why is it a grossly false premise? A woman accused Biden of sexual assault and you compared her to ex-girlfriends 'popping out of the woodwork' like cockroaches.

Patine, as you can see our local committed contrarian has chosen now to make a desperate effort to pick another fight and disrupt the thread. If I appear curt at some point please don't take it personally. I'm enjoying our conversation.

Well, if you want to do it that way, each major party would have to have THREE separate GE tickets - the humane, wise, forward thinking, and egalitarian ticket for each, and the base, populist, rabble-rousing, tell-them-what-they-want-to-here ticket for each, and the "Establishment," ticket for each. One ticket nominated for each party at each election I think is what is becoming insufficient, perhaps, to be representative.

Problem being that the ultimate purpose of the process is to pick one, and only one, chief executive. That choice is supposed to be the representative of the electorate as a whole despite the vast range of views that individuals within that electorate hold.

 

[Patine]

Problem being that the ultimate purpose of the process is to pick one, and only one, chief executive. That choice is supposed to be the representative of the electorate as a whole despite the vast range of views that individuals within that electorate hold.

But, in the modern socio-political and economic climate of the United States, such a representative leader is frankly impossible except as a legal fabrication and Constitutional fiat. A decentralized, committee-style head-of-state office, like Switzerland's Federation Council, would be more honestly workable as the United States and it's population stand now.

 

[Berzerker]

Patine, as you can see our local committed contrarian has chosen now to make a desperate effort to pick another fight and disrupt the thread. If I appear curt at some point please don't take it personally. I'm enjoying our conversation.

The thread is about the 2020 election and now a woman has accused Biden of sexual assault and you compared her to a cockroach popping out of the woodwork... Thats on you, dont blame me.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

But, in the modern socio-political and economic climate of the United States, such a representative leader is frankly impossible except as a legal fabrication and Constitutional fiat. A decentralized, committee-style head-of-state office, like Switzerland's Federation Council, would be more honestly workable as the United States and it's population stand now.

Well, there's probably a pretty long list of things that would qualify as "more honestly workable," but we've got what we've got. Under the same climate that perhaps makes choosing a genuinely representative leader impossible the chances of making substantial changes to constitutional level processes without open civil war are pretty small.