2020 US Election (Part Two)

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There are many things we can do to increase the meaningfulness of the contribution we can make. Multi-party democracy with a sensible voting system helps. Being able to vote without taking a day off really helps. Non-gerrymandered districts helps. Good education for all helps. I do not know what is really what makes the difference, but I stand by what I said earlier, Americans are not different enough to others to explain it all, there really are things we can change that make a difference.
The fastest, simplest and easiest way is to pay for the participation you want. The difficulty of doing things the harder way (like creating a multi party system) are the very things people don't want the responsibility for doing. People want good government with the least effort. Define clearly the participation you want and then reward them for doing it. It is not rocket science.
 
Meh... UK has that and they still have BoJo the Clown as PM ... and a Queen... so...
We do not have a sensible voting system. And I cannot point to a country that is perfect, but some are better than others, and we can choose the good bits.
 
The fastest, simplest and easiest way is to pay for the participation you want. The difficulty of doing things the harder way (like creating a multi party system) are the very things people don't want the responsibility for doing. People want good government with the least effort. Define clearly the participation you want and then reward them for doing it. It is not rocket science.

Pay to vote creates a vast pool of idiot votes. Donald Trump would immediately take credit and claim he was personally putting up the money, and there would be uninformed people who believed him, for example. If you want to go with a paid to vote system I want it attached to a basic knowledge test. If you can demonstrate a basic level of knowledge regarding current events, go ahead and vote and here's X dollars for your time. If not, go bone up and come back later.
 
Yeah, I too am against paying to vote.

One other way to approach the matter is just to say "this is the system we have, all things considered, with all its strengths and weakness." We can all see what a better system would look like, but maybe we can't get there. I'm a Panglossian-cynic: this is the best of all possible worlds, and it still sucks; well, then, the best of all possible worlds sucks.

I don't think of myself as defeatist. I still proudly vote, support candidates in other ways. Work the way that you favor within the system. Work as hard as you can to change the system in ways that would be meaningful to you. But . . . it is what it is. The system is made up of 300 million people, many with different views than you on what would be the ideal system. That's not going to budge easily to the system one person would happen to favor.
 
I'm against competence tests, literacy tests, or any similar "poll tax"-like systems because they are too easy to abuse to actively disenfranchise people. Its the kind of thing that was used to keep emancipated slaves from voting. I don't even like voter ID tbh.
 
I'm against competence tests, literacy tests, or any similar "poll tax"-like systems because they are too easy to abuse to actively disenfranchise people. Its the kind of thing that was used to keep emancipated slaves from voting. I don't even like voter ID tbh.

All of these things are pretty much equally terrible.
 
No, paying people to vote, not people paying to vote. That's what Bird is floating.

Oh, wait, I see that Tim mentioned a competency test. Yeah, not to that too, even paired with paid voting.

Anything that frees people to vote. Early voting. Mail voting. Weekend voting. Nothing that forces people to vote. If you can't be bothered, it's better off you don't get involved.
 
All of these things are pretty much equally terrible.
In general, I'm against obstacles to voting, as it just ends up being used to suppress, discourage, or outright disenfranchise people.

I don't have to show up somewhere in person and show a valid, specific government issued ID to pay my income taxes... so why should I have to do so to vote? Eff that.
 
I'm not wildly favoring a competency test, I'm just saying that if you go into paying people to vote you do need to avoid people who are just there to get paid.
 
Meh... UK has that and they still have BoJo the Clown as PM ... and a Queen... so...

Nah, we have a ridiculous FPTP voting system like you, which means although we have many parties the same 2 always form governments.
 
Pay to vote creates a vast pool of idiot votes.
I would quote Lyndon Johnson laying out the strategy and purpose of Great Society with his characteristic honesty, but racial slurs are prohibited here.

His strategy is reflected in today's ongoing vote purchasing projects. Want your Obamaphone? Need subsidized housing? Free medicine? EBT card? Student loan cleared? UBI? Need your wage increased to 15? A social security check every month? I hear voting Republican described as "voting against your economic interests." Economic interests is such a fine, delicate term for this crap. I couldn't be less interested in becoming a subhuman worm that subsists on this detritus. I hope that the trumpbux, coming as it does from a source that repulses them, clues the left into the true nature of these gibs.
 
I would quote Lyndon Johnson laying out the strategy and purpose of Great Society with his characteristic honesty, but racial slurs are prohibited here.

His strategy is reflected in today's ongoing vote purchasing projects. Want your Obamaphone? Need subsidized housing? Free medicine? EBT card? Student loan cleared? UBI? Need your wage increased to 15? A social security check every month? I hear voting Republican described as "voting against your economic interests." Economic interests is such a fine, delicate term for this crap. I couldn't be less interested in becoming a subhuman worm that subsists on this detritus. I hope that the trumpbux, coming as it does from a source that repulses them, clues the left into the true nature of these gibs.

You should probably get out somewhere on your own. No paved road, no public utilities, lash some branches into a lean to. Just you and your strong hand. Wouldn't want you to find out that you are a detritus consuming subhuman worm.
 
I would quote Lyndon Johnson laying out the strategy and purpose of Great Society with his characteristic honesty, but racial slurs are prohibited here.

His strategy is reflected in today's ongoing vote purchasing projects. Want your Obamaphone? Need subsidized housing? Free medicine? EBT card? Student loan cleared? UBI? Need your wage increased to 15? A social security check every month? I hear voting Republican described as "voting against your economic interests." Economic interests is such a fine, delicate term for this crap. I couldn't be less interested in becoming a subhuman worm that subsists on this detritus. I hope that the trumpbux, coming as it does from a source that repulses them, clues the left into the true nature of these gibs.


Ultimately, everyone's economic interests are served by voting liberal. The same isn't true of their social and political interests. There are many people who choose to use government to take a larger slice of a smaller pie, rather than a smaller piece of a larger pie. Even when the smaller slice of the larger pie is greater total purchasing power as a whole. Conservatives often prefer to have a larger slice of a smaller pie, because doing so mean more power and higher social position.

But paying for conservative policies means a poorer, weaker, less free, and less safe, nation. A price they are more than willing to inflict on us.
 
Trump didn’t run against Obama. Trump had a message, a movement and a vision (terrible but still). He ran against Clinton who had nothing but smug “not-Trump” rhetoric and lost as well. You are piling on my arguments, well done. (and Amadeus is IMO not a credible source on anything - he is a laissez-faire market rule all hard-core right-wing libertarian, why even bring him into this? He would most likely vote Trump to screw anyone on the left of Trump)


Had Trump ran against Bernie – Bernie would have likely won against Trump, and America would have been ten times more prepared to handle the corona virus crisis. Sanders would be able to drive through Medicare for all which at this moment in time has 55% public support. 52% amongst independent and undecided. He would sweep Trump this election on that issue alone. But we can't have that because of the corrupt democratic party rigging in #HidinBiden to champion their ticket to guaranteed electoral defeat – in a depression, a health crisis, against Trump. You could not make a situation up to be any sillier. It’s like a Monty Python sketch.
First, Trump DID run against Obama. He jumped on the birther waggon and kept harping on it. His platform was to repeal the Affordable Care Act and roll back environmental protections and the like. His vision ‘terrible but still’ as you rightly call it, was simply doing whatever the Democrats and their cotton-picker (insult actually used during the campaign on live unscripted TV) had managed to do. And all he is doing is exactly that. Less taxes for the rich? Done. Breaking climate agreements? Check. Starting trade wars? Check. Undoing the ACA? It's defunded. Packing the Supreme Court? Check.

It's all about destruction.
And the existence of inequity in the distribution of power does not negate the fact that regular voters do in-fact wield political power, particularly in a collective sense... which is the only sense that really makes sense measuring the power in, because that is how we vote. This isn't a Pirate Brethren Council where every person votes for themselves. There are an extremely limited number of potentially viable candidates and so we vote, or don't vote for them collectively. I never said or implied that the political power of any individual voter was equivalent to the political power of someone serving in elected office. Its not even a meaningful comparison to try to make. The point is that the politicians reflect the voters so I'm not inclined to ignore that and place all the blame on the politicians.
Sometimes we can just vote for Elizabeth Swann. But we don't.
Sommerswerd said:
Also, what is the alternative, if the people can't possibly be expected to exercise any meaningful collective political power? Just take it out of the people's hands and leave it to a wise benevolent dictator?
Read this.
I'm against competence tests, literacy tests, or any similar "poll tax"-like systems because they are too easy to abuse to actively disenfranchise people. Its the kind of thing that was used to keep emancipated slaves from voting. I don't even like voter ID tbh.
Voter ID is what actually ensures turnout here. But here voting is mandatory so the state apparatus is compelled to give you your ID card at a quite cheap price. Voting days are always by law non-working days (Sundays usually), which also greatly helps.
 
Pay to vote creates a vast pool of idiot votes. Donald Trump would immediately take credit and claim he was personally putting up the money, and there would be uninformed people who believed him, for example. If you want to go with a paid to vote system I want it attached to a basic knowledge test. If you can demonstrate a basic level of knowledge regarding current events, go ahead and vote and here's X dollars for your time. If not, go bone up and come back later.
It all hinges on what one's goals are and what it means to participate. If by participation one means "vote" then you are one path. If it means something else, then that's different. Not if one's goal is to vote knowledgeably, that is a whole different thing and much more difficult. I'll go back to what I said: clearly define what you want people to do; make it easy as possible to do it; and reward them when they do. Money is only one way to reward people, but it is easy, quick, and people like it. Personally, I think more voters is better than than fewer. Voting is a step in the more participation direction. If you want educated voters, do things in HS to encourage voting. If you want candidate knowledgeable voters then offer a two step process of rewards: $20 to vote and another $30 if you pass a test. The military has lots of success with badges, ribbons and medals as rewards for participation over time and making valued efforts. Could this method be adapted to voting or other democracy important participation? Tie voting to lower rent or taxes. There are lots of ways to reward people. Celebrate voters with a no sales tax weekend. Is there any value to a city or State to have a 50% increase in voter turnout? Once voting becomes a habit, what they once did for cash might well turn into being a better more knowledgeable voter. Non voters don't help anybody.

I'm not wildly favoring a competency test, I'm just saying that if you go into paying people to vote you do need to avoid people who are just there to get paid.
i disagree. People often begin doing things just for the money and then find out that there is more to it and there are other reasons why it is important. You can always offer an option to not take the money. You have to get folks started with participation. All the rest will follow given time and continued ease in doing so.
 
i disagree. People often begin doing things just for the money and then find out that there is more to it and there are other reasons why it is important. You can always offer an option to not take the money. You have to get folks started with participation. All the rest will follow given time and continued ease in doing so.

I'd have to see that before I'd believe it. There was this drug awareness program that the Bureau of Prisons got saddled with by the Clinton administration. They ran this pilot, reluctantly, because of course plenty of conservatives favor "lock 'em up" with no interest in what happens after. Much to everyone's surprise, except the people who came up with the program, graduate recidivism rate fell almost to zero. So the AG, and congress, and whoever else had a horn to stick in, scrambled their brains for how to expand this program throughout the system.

What they came up with was a year off sentence for non-violent offenders who completed the program. The result was that graduate recidivism rate barely differed from baseline. Upon further review they figured out that if you split out the people who didn't get the year off but took the program anyway what was left actually had a higher recidivism rate than baseline.

End of the day I came away with a very low opinion of "incentivizing."
 
DNC postpones nomination convention!
 
I'd have to see that before I'd believe it. There was this drug awareness program that the Bureau of Prisons got saddled with by the Clinton administration. They ran this pilot, reluctantly, because of course plenty of conservatives favor "lock 'em up" with no interest in what happens after. Much to everyone's surprise, except the people who came up with the program, graduate recidivism rate fell almost to zero. So the AG, and congress, and whoever else had a horn to stick in, scrambled their brains for how to expand this program throughout the system.

What they came up with was a year off sentence for non-violent offenders who completed the program. The result was that graduate recidivism rate barely differed from baseline. Upon further review they figured out that if you split out the people who didn't get the year off but took the program anyway what was left actually had a higher recidivism rate than baseline.

End of the day I came away with a very low opinion of "incentivizing."
Recidivism is a complicated issue and seems to me would require a more complex solution. Voting is pretty simple and without the social issues tied to crime and punishment. Folks have to read (a requirement?) and then tick boxes in some fashion. It happens infrequently and there is no penalty if one doesn't do it. How do you respond when GOG incentivizes you to buy games? Does a time constraint motivate you further? Incentives do work. They change behavior when done right. You just have to choose carefully how you do it and that it is tied closely to the new behavior.
 
Recidivism is a complicated issue and seems to me would require a more complex solution. Voting is pretty simple and without the social issues tied to crime and punishment. Folks have to read (a requirement?) and then tick boxes in some fashion. It happens infrequently and there is no penalty if one doesn't do it. How do you respond when GOG incentivizes you to buy games? Does a time constraint motivate you further? Incentives do work. They change behavior when done right. You just have to choose carefully how you do it and that it is tied closely to the new behavior.

Problem is that incentivizing a simple behavior seems unlikely to produce any more complex result. If someone makes a buck for showing up and checking the boxes they may not even bother reading. You pause to wonder if reading is a requirement because what the word "voting" means to you certainly includes it, but the incentive program isn't going to produce voting as you understand it, it's going to produce voting as the incentive program defines it. That might be ticking boxes that make an interesting pattern on the ballot, or leaving the ballot blank, or who can guess what all.
 
Problem is that incentivizing a simple behavior seems unlikely to produce any more complex result. If someone makes a buck for showing up and checking the boxes they may not even bother reading. You pause to wonder if reading is a requirement because what the word "voting" means to you certainly includes it, but the incentive program isn't going to produce voting as you understand it, it's going to produce voting as the incentive program defines it. That might be ticking boxes that make an interesting pattern on the ballot, or leaving the ballot blank, or who can guess what all.
That's why you choose carefully exactly what behaviors you want to happen. Figure out what you want the landscape to look like when you are done. This is not a "do as a lark" type exercise. I'd even run a few limited tests first to see what happens. There is process to do this kind of thing and it must be taken on seriously and thoughtfully. Try things out at the county level and see what happens. Figure out the barriers and how to overcome them. Talk to people to see what would motivate them.
 
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