[Extension] 3rd and 4th Unique Components for VP - Official thread 88.10

[Enrico Swagolo]

I KNOW RIGHT?

This is hilarious to me because I got shouted down that the building yields were too high like a year ago. This is even though Smithsonian, a UNW for the SAME WONDER, gives 1010 in every city from Museums/Broadcast Towers.

I wanted those Constabulary/Arsenal bonuses to be global, so I left them as local bonuses and waited for people to get their heads screwed on straight.

You were right for sure, at this point in the game even the total +23 per city given instantly wouldn't be impressive, let alone when it's all spread out on three situational buildings you might not even want to get depending on your policy choices and Production access, with one coming half an era later. The weird part is even after you turn it global I just don't see it being good. +3 on Arsenal is more than unlikely to make me build Arsenal in cities I care not about potential assault/espionage without Autocracy's +3, and even then it won't be worthwhile. In most cities, it'll be 22, and only after some time after the buildings are up.

Gold and Food aren't very valuable, especially at this point and in little quantities. Compared to Carthaginian Super East India Company, with +3 2 per city on earlier buildings (one being built automatically in the majority - if not all - of your cities), that is online two eras earlier, comes more than just a single tech earlier and has 2 free , it just isn't anywhere near as good. It also affects mandatory buildings for the civ that you get or want anyway, not ones that might be situational or worthless depending on what policies you pick. Sure, Carthage will usually have some non-coastal cities, but you can just have an AI build them for you and puppet unless they have tiles so good, it's just worth settling them.

 

[pineappledan]

This was my original idea:
3 to Castles and Constabularies
3 to Zoos and Arsenals
I'm also thinking I might axe the -25% spy effectiveness on empire and give an instant 100/ per killed spy in addition to the . The -25% spy effectiveness actually reduces the number of times spies will get killed, so its counter-synergy.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Seems fine to me, it's renaissance after all. It does affect many buildings with similar yields though, so it's probably what warped the perception of how it'd actually be. 3 's not going to make someone built a Zoo or Arsenal if the buildings aren't needed anyway, so for most guys it'll be 6 per city after Castle/Constabulary, the Gold coming into effect in just a fraction of the cities. Appears like just an ok UNW, but not much more unless AI really sends a lot of Recruits to London to meet your Special Agents.

 

[amateurgamer88]

I don't feel like 5% more GPP rate is really significant. Majesty in Tradition gives 25% alone and, if you want more GP, you'd go for Leaning Tower of Pisa (25%), Garden (25% if you aim for Hanging Garden), Artistry opener (another 25%) and possibly Iconography (15% during Golden Ages). I don't mind seeing that axed so more Culture on birth can be implemented.

EDIT: Is it fine if you give this UNW one more slot for Great Writing and give it some small theming bonus? Or is this too buffed?

 

[pineappledan]

I'll buff the culture on birth and remove the bonus GPR. That unstacks the bonus from Piazza San Marco, so I think it's better design anyways.

I aint touching themeing bonuses if I don't have to. G keeps changing how they work and they're a pain in the ass to write the code for.

 

[FoxOfWar]

I think I raised the point about White Tower's buffs being local being a bit silly a while back, so I am happy to see if we're going the way of them being globall building yields. Also good point about the spy stuff counter-synergy there. Of course I am biased as heck as I love my wide play.

Currently playing Assyria, and aside from that possible CS bug with Iron Chariot(I'll redo my mods and see if it persists once I'm done with my current game), seems to be in a pretty solid place. I like being able to get those 9 works of writing just that little bit earlier, for sure, and the extra supply is real good for a "start Tradition, conquer later" approach.

 

[Pajazo]

I have been playing with this mod for a while now and thought i should give some feedback. The performance improvements have made a big difference for me so thank you very much for those

I'm playing with America now and Homestead feels a lot better than previously. I was able to get pioneers around turn 135 which felt quite powerful. However the ability to claim horse/cattle/sheep/bison-tiles didn't work at all. I should have gotten like 3 of them in my 6 cities so it's not a major part of the building anyway and I wouldn't mind dropping that bonus. I haven't got to monitors yet.

Of other civs Pineappledan asked about and I have played recently China felt very strong and that was with the patch that removed their UA bonuses completely on era change. I think its a base VP thing and the 3/4 components didn't feel too strong.
Persia AI seems to underperform every time I see them but maybe they are much better with a human player.

Overall I really enjoy this mod and can't imagine playing without it anymore

 

[amateurgamer88]

Right now, I tried the new China and it's still broken. This was a King Standard game and I went Authority. I'm competing for the tech leader and more or less on par in policies. I'm only behind Morocco (who always seems to do very well in all my game regardless) and Poland (his UA does help him keep up). My only weakness is religion since I've been busy warring all the times as I weakened two of my neighbors and fought a third opponent into a stalemate since I'm not quite committed yet.

The 3/4 UC of China is going to be exceptionally hard to balance with a civ that's still, in my opinion, very much broken. The naval UU is very powerful if used well and makes Diplomatic victory easier for China. The Examination Hall is pretty meh which's understandable. However, I feel bad that more couldn't be done for this civ. One issue I noticed is that AI China actually spams nothing but that unit so she has no melee ships. This was the China in my Ethiopia game where her ships dropped enemy coastal cities to no health but have no ships to capture those cities. Is this intended or is this just an isolated chance?

 

[pineappledan]

We have 0 control over build orders in this mod. Enrico also noted that the India AI basically ignores building its unique archer entirely. There’s basically nothing we can do on our end

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

After playing some more, I think Grande Ecole probably needs a nerf. Reducing specialist bonuses from 3 /3 to 2 would probably be needed. Probably base should go down to something like 3 as well, but that's not a must. So far it's better at Production than the entirety of the Steam Mill (outside of capital city), and Steam Mill has nothing but Production. Sure, SM is not a good UB, but I'm certain now GE is too good.

 

[pineappledan]

Currently playing Assyria, and aside from that possible CS bug with Iron Chariot(I'll redo my mods and see if it persists once I'm done with my current game), seems to be in a pretty solid place.

You should do that. I have 12CS in my games.

However the ability to claim horse/cattle/sheep/bison-tiles didn't work at all. I should have gotten like 3 of them in my 6 cities so it's not a major part of the building anyway and I wouldn't mind dropping that bonus. I haven't got to monitors yet.

There was an iPlayers/pPlayer problem with the code. It will be fixed in the next version

After playing some more, I think Grande Ecole probably needs a nerf. Reducing specialist bonuses from 3 /3 to 2 would probably be needed. Probably base should go down to something like 3 as well, but that's not a must. So far it's better at Production than the entirety of the Steam Mill (outside of capital city), and Steam Mill has nothing but Production. Sure, SM is not a good UB, but I'm certain now GE is too good.

Hmmm....

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Nevermind, I've updated and the current version has the specs at 2. It must've been ninja nerfed, or I was mistaken. The description however still mentions the Science scaler being there, and it isn't.

Other description problems I've caught:
Teutonic Order doesn't mention the Faith per kill yields.
Corsair says about "XXX Kills a Units". Kills shouldn't be capitalised, and it should be kills a Unit or kills Units". Riad lacks a dot at the end of it's second sentence, where it mentions how it improves every era.
Goedendag should say it has increased Combat Strength if starting the turn in a city, not if Garrisoned in a City.

 

[pineappledan]

And you should update Persian picture in first post because the UA has changed.

I really don't like what I've done with Persia -- especially with the change to Civilized Jewelers -- but I feel like I'm up against a wall here.

I don't know how I can make the Pairidaeza an attractive building which compliments Persia's playstyle without mangling the UA or overlapping considerably with the Riad.

I really want to remove all the changes to the Persian UA and remove the +5%GA length from the Pairideaza.
Instead, I will move the +15% during GAs to the Pairidaeza from the Riad, and move the building forward to Engineering.

What else can I do with these 2 buildings (Pairideaza and Riad) and the Persian UA to make them work better together?
Maybe Give Riad +2 to both Land and Sea TRs, and 50 on completion of ITRs?
@Hinin, @Enrico Swagolo, @FoxOfWar, @adan_eslavo, @Blue Ghost, penny for your thoughts?

Nevermind, I've updated and the current version has the specs at 2. It must've been ninja nerfed, or I was mistaken

Heh, the dangers of working on both the Github version and my own local install. I updated the text, but I think the building still gives 3/3. It will be 2/2 in the next version, and I'm going to axe the +2/2 at Computers.

Goedendag should say it has increased Combat Strength if starting the turn in a city, not if Garrisoned in a City.

"Garrisoned in a city" is more clear than just "in a City". Even if they weren't technically fortified in the city, I think it clarifies more than it muddies.

 

[Enginseer]

We have 0 control over build orders in this mod. Enrico also noted that the India AI basically ignores building its unique archer entirely. There’s basically nothing we can do on our end

up the unit_flavor to infinity

 

[FoxOfWar]

Yep, back to 12CS now with the Iron Chariot, after reinstalling mods. Dunno what happened there.

I don't have much game under my belt with Persia, but the one I did left me feeling bit underwhelmed by the additions. Worth a think, at the very least.

 

[Cebrudras]

What else can I do with these 2 buildings (Pairideaza and Riad) and the Persian UA to make them work better together?
Maybe Give Riad +2 to both Land and Sea TRs, and 50 on completion of ITRs?

Can the global corporation effects that affect TRs be turned into city specific ones? Because some of them are fun UC fodder. The doubled Caravan speed should be fun early with the new ITR completion stuff and will turn into an asset for the CV later.

 

[pineappledan]

Can the global corporation effects that affect TRs be turned into city specific ones? Because some of them are fun UC fodder. The doubled Caravan speed should be fun early with the new ITR completion stuff and will turn into an asset for the CV later.

Nope. You can basically consider most things to do with Corporations as being hardcoded to Corporations only. The corporations use their own .dll code which is separate from buildings and wonders, so any bonus that scales with franchises or is on the corporate HQ is basically untouchable

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

I really don't like what I've done with Persia -- especially with the change to Civilized Jewelers -- but I feel like I'm up against a wall here.

I don't know how I can make the Pairidaeza an attractive building which compliments Persia's playstyle without mangling the UA or overlapping considerably with the Riad.

I really want to remove all the changes to the Persian UA and remove the +5%GA length from the Pairideaza.
Instead, I will move the +15% during GAs to the Pairidaeza from the Riad, and move the building forward to Engineering.

What else can I do with these 2 buildings (Pairideaza and Riad) and the Persian UA to make them work better together?
Maybe Give Riad +2 to both Land and Sea TRs, and 50 on completion of ITRs?
@Hinin, @Enrico Swagolo, @FoxOfWar, @adan_eslavo, @Blue Ghost, penny for your thoughts?

Seems fine to me with Pairidaeza, +15% during GAs synergises with Persia's kit in more ways than one, not Morocco's (you get only 1 scaling point per different trade target, that's nothing).

Concerning Riad, I like the Gold on I(nternal?)TR idea and I don't at the same time. It probably won't dissuade Morocco from sending TRs to different targets anyway, but it is a fallback plan in case you are already diversifying the TRs and have no alternatives. It'd be better if it got something else than that ITR bonus, though, or else it's a pretty considerable anti-synergy. Riad wants you to maximise Gold output in the city which international TRs help with, the ITRs have no Gold and the UA wants International TRs too, even if the UA's yields in capital benefits are pretty small. I don't know what to suggest with this one, all I know is I don't like the Riad as it currently is. It's a nice help in some aspects, but it feels slightly weird. I like the scaling yields, but they're pretty small and not the main dish while there's other Great Merchant based civs around. I don't have any ideas, though.

 

[pineappledan]

How about it gives the 50 ITR bonus and increases from Resource Diversity by 25% for ETRs?

I could also add a -5% local HurryGoldModifier

 

[doublex55]

Hi guys how balanced would u say this mod is on a scale of 1-10?