3rd and 4th Unique Components for VP - Official thread 87

[pineappledan]

Nope, you’re right. I didn’t distinguish between fast general and faster general

 

[Zakuzelo]

How much is the Longship nerf a question of balance, and how much is it a mechanical issue?

 

[Hinin]

How much is the Longship nerf a question of balance, and how much is it a mechanical issue?

It is entirely a question of mechanical issue : Viking Exploration doesn't work well in practice, since you're supposed to keep your Longship on the embarked unit all the time, or they get stuck on the ocean tile and you have to delete them. Plus, the AI is incapable of using it.

 

[ridjack]

Playing as Carthage, I seem to be occasionally doubling up on Suffets. It doesn't happen every time a Suffet spawns, but it has happened more than once. When it does, one spawns normally at the site of the battle (option I have enabled), and the other spawns back in Carthage.

Spoiler :

 

[Zakuzelo]

It is entirely a question of mechanical issue : Viking Exploration doesn't work well in practice, since you're supposed to keep your Longship on the embarked unit all the time, or they get stuck on the ocean tile and you have to delete them. Plus, the AI is incapable of using it.

Could it be adjusted so the unit keeps the buff until the unit reaches a sea tile or disembarks? Maybe make it an aura?
I feel removing the mechanic outright is a big mistake. If anything it should be expanded to include infantry. As-is the Vikings can't actually go viking until the renaissance.

 

[Hinin]

When it does, one spawns normally at the site of the battle (option I have enabled)

I think that the element that's causing trouble.

Could it be adjusted so the unit keeps the buff until the unit reaches a sea tile or disembarks? Maybe make it an aura?
I feel removing the mechanic outright is a big mistake. If anything it should be expanded to include infantry. As-is the Vikings can't actually go viking until the renaissance.

Two things :

• First, the idea of a promotion that only disappears once you leave ocean tiles is something we thought about, but it doesn't work properly
• Second, the aura part won't make it more usable by the AI : you know how much trouble we had making the AI follow their Settlers with Military Units ? That required specific coding, since the AI don't know the concept of Unit interaction (each unit acts on their own, and we must code specific behaviours each time we want them to act together). This means that the AI will never know that there is an interaction possible with the Longship, and will never be able to maintain it throughout and Ocean traversal anyway (and we don't do behaviour coding, that's far beyond our skillset).

I agree that the loss of medieval Ocean movement is a big loss for the civ though. There are two solutions I see :

• Make it so that Ocean movement is integrated into the UA starting the Medieval era (but that would be stepping on Polynesia's toes quite a bit)
  
• Make it so that one Danish UB gives "can traverse Ocean tiles" to Land Units produced in the city => The problem with this is that the Runestone is early Classical, and the Andelsbevægelse is Industrial, so... do we replace the second with a unique early Harbor or something like this ? This part is the work of @De_Genius, and I wouldn't like it to be changed without his consent, but he hasn't been on the forum for more than two years.

In all cases, that doesn't change the fact that the bonus has to be removed from the Longship. As a compensation, either we increase the unit base CS a bit, or we find a new bonus in exchange.

 

[ridjack]

I think that the element that's causing trouble.

Possibly, but I've had that option enabled for literally years and this is the first time I've ever seen that.

 

[KlHannibal2]

In the middle of a Rome game now. The shorter build time for the latifundium feels right and I never considered building plantations instead.

 

[Bruhmoment]

In the middle of a Rome game now. The shorter build time for the latifundium feels right and I never considered building plantations instead.

Jungle latifundiums take just as long as the pre nerf ( maybe even longer) to build. I can't imagine what it was before

 

[KlHannibal2]

Jungle latifundiums take just as long as the pre nerf ( maybe even longer) to build. I can't imagine what it was before

In my game I had open terrain latifundia. Jungle and forest take longer, but so do plantations on jungle amd forest. I would guess the latifundium takes the same number of extra turns compared to the plantation on any terrain. The chop should be a separate action independent of the improvement that is constructed aftwerwards. Did you check the turn differences?

 

[Bruhmoment]

In my game I had open terrain latifundia. Jungle and forest take longer, but so do plantations on jungle amd forest. I would guess the latifundium takes the same number of extra turns compared to the plantation on any terrain. The chop should be a separate action independent of the improvement that is constructed aftwerwards. Did you check the turn differences?

I don't know the difference between the plantation and the latifundium, but I'll assume a plantation is 5 turns. A latifundium takes either 7 or 9 turns (can't remember). Almost 2x longer. But you get a resource.
On jungle, a plantation takes 13 turns. A latifundium? - Somewhere between 17-19. Not too bad if I say so myself. I counted the chop action aswell

 

[Sailor Clueless]

I tried downloading 3rd & 4th Unique Components and I couldn't enable it in-game on account of "missing dependencies" even though I have VP in full. I wonder what those would be...
I also thought I would try noodling around with the German unique warrior's barbarian conversion statistic, but I'm not sure where to find it. Is it in the Ulfhedinn.sql?

 

[pineappledan]

it's in ulfhedinn.lua

You need all mods in VP - including more luxuries - activated before you try to activate 4UC

 

[Sailor Clueless]

it's in ulfhedinn.lua

You need all mods in VP - including more luxuries - activated before you try to activate 4UC

Odd, I thought I had them activated. Perhaps not.
The lua... I didn't see anything about 50%. Is it the barbarian alliance promotion itself where the change needs to be made?

 

[pineappledan]

There is a rand() function with 1/2, ie 50%. Change the size of the random number and threshold to change the probability

 

[Sailor Clueless]

There is a rand() function with 1/2, ie 50%. Change the size of the random number and threshold to change the probability

Ah, okay. I can see that now - random chance for 1 out of 2. This may be beyond my wheelhouse. I was thinking of changing the probability to 70% but I don't know what the code for that would look like.

 

[pineappledan]

Random number between 1 and 10
If less than 8 then

 

[Sailor Clueless]

Random number between 1 and 10
If less than 8 then

Great, thanks.
Now I shall see if this is overridden by line 434 in the VanillaLeaderChanges.sql of the Community Balance...

 

[pineappledan]

It won’t, they have nothing to do with each other. You will sometimes end up getting 2 barbarians after killing 1 if you are using both methods

 

[ridjack]

Did this escape the update without needing changes, or just not ready yet? Not a complaint, just want to know if it's safe to add this back in!