1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

3rd UU/UB Suggestions

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by ScottMcPwn, Apr 2, 2013.

  1. Stonecutter9

    Stonecutter9 Rex Michiganensis

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2013
    Messages:
    201
    Location:
    Michigan
    I thought of this too but a quick scan of the Wikipedia page and other websites indicates that the khopesh was not unique to Egypt; it was prevalent all over the ancient Near East. I added the Felucca to my list because it could be a cargo ship UU in the new expansion; faster movement/ability to traverse rivers/ability to defend itself, etc,. This could be a more accurate and totally unique UU instead of the khopesh which would be another warrior/spear/sword replacement.
     
  2. Tyrvos

    Tyrvos Cu Chulainn

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2013
    Messages:
    214
    Location:
    Taxachusetts
    For the Dutch, I'd see something bank related as a possibility. Would go with their economic focus. I'm guessing the Ruyter and Fluyt choices are AOE 3 driven? haha.
     
  3. mitsho

    mitsho Deity

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2003
    Messages:
    7,572
    Location:
    Europe, more or less
    I'd dislike a second unique unit for Egypt. Coming from gameplay, a irrigation related unique building (call it shadoof or just irrigation basind) helping cities grow tall (and thus go for more wonders) by adding food fits much better than a unit that will not be used many times at all in most Egypt games.

    But shouldn't this thread be moved to the Suggestions forum? There will not be a 3rd UU/UB in BNW since they would not keep something like this from us. Even if they will include it, they have not said anything so far in that direction so this is pure speculation.

    PS: But if you're making suggestions, I suggest (;)) you think of civ design when making these like I did above.
     
  4. sukritact

    sukritact Artist and Modder

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2010
    Messages:
    2,858
    Location:
    Bangkok
    Good point, I agree with that, it probably should be moved
     
  5. Vandal Thorne

    Vandal Thorne Warlord

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2008
    Messages:
    153
    Technologically speaking, the khopesh is the intermediate technology between axe and sword. The sort of missing link for bladed weapons development.
     
  6. steveg700

    steveg700 Deity

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2012
    Messages:
    3,547
    Well, many civ's do have two UU's. Wouldn't it be reasonable design is to allocate two UU's when the UA is strong? Egypt probably falls in that category, and has a good UB, why nix two UU's for Egypt in particular?

    The nice thing about wonders is that they can help you be good at anything, including building more wonders. In many respects, some wonders have an effect on par with a unique building. With regards to growth, for instance, Temple of Artemis and Hanging Gardens provide the growth boost you mention. The Great Libarary or National College give you a tech boost research Civil Service faster, which is where Civ V incorporates irrigation and crop-rotation techniques. The Hagia Sophia can net an early Great Prophet, and relgion opens up all kinds of doors.
     
  7. Gamling

    Gamling Chieftain

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2010
    Messages:
    41
    Sauna´s and bollhus is silly sugestions for sweden. No one want´s to put their cities close to snow anyhow and as a swede i never heard of Bollhus. We have idrotshallar = sport halls, were you play sports indoors which is handy when you have long winters.

    Better suggestions would be:

    UB Bruk which where manufacturing towns created by the kings usually in forest areas were there was plenty wood to fuel the furnaces, creating swords guns and cannons for the Swedish military. Many of these Bruks became big companies that survived to these days. But now they make different stuff like paper or planks. Nokia started out as a Bruk town for instance.

    Bruks would replace Forges
    +20% (5% extra) Production towards Land Units. +1 Production for each worked Iron. Requires Iron. And giving one extra production and gold on each of the city's worked forest.

    Another option would be to have them as better forest improvements giving maybe 3 production and 2 gold but would require and iron each.

    UU Field cannons where first used by Gustaf II Adolf and was lighter cannons that could much faster be repositioned and reaimed compared to that ages usual siege cannons giving great advantages in battles out in the field.

    Field Cannon (replaces the ordinary cannon)
    Movement: 2; Strength: 16(2 more); Ranged Strength: 18(2 less); Range: 2; Cost: 165 (20 less): Required Resource: none
    Technology: Chemistry; Obsolete with: Dynamite; Upgrades to: Artillery
    Abilities: May not melee attack, +100% bonus vs. Cities (100% less), no defensive bonuses, limited visibility, must not set up to range attack.
     
  8. mitsho

    mitsho Deity

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2003
    Messages:
    7,572
    Location:
    Europe, more or less
    I chose Egypt as an example because it was just brought up in the thread, I could have probably chosen any other civ as proposed in the opening post. 2 UU's don't achieve anything spectactular for Egypt, so I'd phrase it the other way round. Why force two UU's for Egypt in particular? It's about the design of the civ regarding gameplay, not a simulation. (That I btw. would find highly debateable even in the case of Egypt where we put 4000+ years of history and countless different states into one civ)

    That proposed Swordsman for example. How do you make it distinct? Is it a defensive focused Warrior (boring as Archers/War Chariot do that much better), an better Swordman (bad, because now all three of Egypt's Uniques are spread out over the whole tech tree), an earlier/moved Swordman (now you are competing with Rome and the Iroquois for a military civ). You see we already have problems of being distinct, now think of all the other uniques and you see that the task is quite impossible. Sometimes, less is more.

    And I don't understand what your points about Wonders is. I do agree with you, but fail to see how that adresses my point?

    PS: I'd argue that Egypt doesn't have a strong UA, but a 'beginners' one. It's fairly powerful on the lower levels but becomes weaker and weaker the higher you go, especially due to the fact that good players manage to play without wonders. And I'm not sure that you need to strive for perfect balance in civ between the civilizations, the game is too set up randomly for that in my mind. But of course I'd avoid creating overpowered combinations as well. That however doesn't mean we need to assign a useless or bad unique unit for balance. That's simply not fun at all after all...
     
  9. Stonecutter9

    Stonecutter9 Rex Michiganensis

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2013
    Messages:
    201
    Location:
    Michigan
    Of course, I'm not from Sweden, I'm from Michigan (where it's just as cold :snowgrin: ) but it seems to me that the Bruk might be better served as a Lumbermill UI...perhaps +1:c5production: when next to another Bruk, +2 :c5production: when next to two or more Bruks? Your current suggestion sounds a LOT like the Iroquois UB, the Longhouse.
     
  10. steveg700

    steveg700 Deity

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2012
    Messages:
    3,547
    I'm getting the impression that you're arguing against the entire idea of unique units, given that we're talking about a hypothetical unit yet to be fully designed and you've already said that it won't "do anything spectacular". Am I way off-target?

    There simply aren't enough types of standard units in the game that one can declare a civ "in competition" with another civ because they have the same UU replacement. At this point, there might even be more replacements than there are units to replace(?). Swordsman in just one of those units that is likely to see numerous replacements.

    I'm not sure what you mean by "good players manage to play without wonders". Good players can do without a great deal. I suppose you're framing that within the context of playing on higher difficulties. Most of the poeple playing on high difficulties are simply using a scripted path to victory. It's an exercise in efficiency, as well as the ability to shamelessly exploit AI weaknesses. The chief reason to not build wonders on Diety is that it's got a low chance of paying off, not because a player is so good that he doesn't need to build them. Wonder have been written out of The Script.

    I can appreciate playing in a hardcore siege mode where you're struggling to survive a non-stop onslaught. Every bullet has to count and one slip-up can cost you everything. That's kind of what Diety difficulty is for. What I don't agree with is the notion that efficiently executing a predeterimined path to victory on Deity makes someone a better or more experienced player than someone who plays Civ on King, but plays it as a 4X game, not a turtling siege game.

    The reason I went into all of that is because it is actually related to our discussion. Namely, I propose that "optimal" design is not necessarily the same thing as "good" design.

    Optimal civ design means that you only give people uniques that compliment established core strengths. It means that the only good unique unit is one that replaces whatever is already the ranged-unit-de-jour of that era. Even then, you should go with a unique building instead, since its benefits are passive and consistent throughout the game.

    Good civ design means that you try to bestow the sense that playing a particular civ feels unique and distinctive from playing other civ's. It steers players into experimenting with styles of play they wouldn't normally consider viable. Of course, the Diety player will simply judge any civ that isn't compatible with the Diety Script to be "weak" or "UP" and avoid it. But that doesn't mean the civ is badly-designed or is only for beginners.

    That's one man's opinion, anyway.
     
  11. Gamling

    Gamling Chieftain

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2010
    Messages:
    41
    I agree but with more UU and UB some of them will be much alike with some of the other civs. Between I think longhouses should give one extra food on forests instead.

    Anyhow Bruk should give a production boost requiring both forests and iron somehow. I would love if we had more of the unique improvements in the game. I think a better forest improvement giving maybe 2 production and 1 gold could work and maybe another gold with late game techs would suit Sweden much.

    Like 85% of Sweden is covered by forest today and most of it is used by the forest industry. We don´t have many trees older than 80 years. So the forests are not so natural anymore, and with a lot less diversity. Think pine trees of the same height in controlled lines next to "kalhyggen" areas where all the trees have been recently cut down and the ground is upside down with tracks of the great machines and broken roots and braches. It´s not pretty, but it generates money.
     
  12. Stonecutter9

    Stonecutter9 Rex Michiganensis

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2013
    Messages:
    201
    Location:
    Michigan
    It just seems to me that if it requires iron to be built, it would be exclusive to a handful of Swedish cities, and that would be less helpful. Maybe there could be a +1:c5production: bonus when a Bruk is built in a city/on a tile near Iron? Personally I prefer it as a UI, because the game needs more of those and also because based on the context you have provided it would be built outside of a city.
     
  13. mitsho

    mitsho Deity

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2003
    Messages:
    7,572
    Location:
    Europe, more or less
    Yes and No, of course ;-). I said I can't imagine myself a way to make such a unit 'spectacular' and not be too much of a competition for warlike civs of that 'gameplay era' like Rome and Iroquois. And going from that, I feel that each addition should add something of value to the game since it takes up lots of ressources that could be invested elsewhere.

    It's not that there can't be several uniques based on one base unit, but that these uniques in my mind should be spread out over the whole game. If I want to play a Swordsman focused game, I will chose Rome and Iroquois. I'd rather Egypt had to offer something else.

    The "A good player is one that manages to win without Wonders" has become practically a Civ saying, no? What I mean with it is less the need to play the game like a puzzle to be solved. I don't like that either (and I'd go one step further and say that this is what scenarios (and diety to an extent) is for). Nevertheless, it is a rookie mistake to build as many wonders as you can because you can, mostly because it distracts you from your goal.

    Regarding the distinction between optimal and good, I do see your points and I don't think we are far off from each other at all. I do agree that every unique needs to be rooted in "history" and that it should offer distinct ways to play the game. This is why I prefer the GEM mod with its changed leaders to the often imbalanced vanilla game. The Ottoman's capture ships UA is a good one since it makes you go for ships actively, but then poses you of the problem to use this navy before the upkeep eats you up (ironically making them a CS Alliance warmonger civ by making you gift ships to CS), Egypt's is a bad one since it just gives you a straight passive bonus. But then I'd argue that Egypt is a beginner's civ and that this is fine. There doesn't need to be total balance*.

    So, I'd add that Good civ design offers you unique gameplay and makes you "go off the script" as much as possible. And I just don't see how a Swordsmen/Warrior unique offers that to Egypt.

    *Exception is of course for Multiplayer but I don't think Egypt is a multiplayer fan favourite, so it's not overpowered. So for Multiplayer it's more important that some civs are not imbalanced (but they can be overpowered, if you get my distinction ;))
     
  14. BSPollux

    BSPollux Deity

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2006
    Messages:
    2,210
    Location:
    Germany
    Germany:

    "Arbeitsdienst" - A unique worker that can be made at double speed and works at double speed while the nation is unhappy.

    Why that? To resemble the enormous boost in infrastructure construction before WW2. The bad guy with the mustache was faced with a huge unemployment rate and hired all these guys to build the infrastructure. He prepared the country for his war and he solved the unemployment problem. This played a veryx important role in that time.
     
  15. VanEyck

    VanEyck Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2012
    Messages:
    16
    Songhai should get a suped up library, or should be able to build the Nat'l College without having library in all cities.
     
  16. VINWI

    VINWI Chieftain

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2013
    Messages:
    7
    Location:
    Korea
    um.. what is a huaminca and quechua warriar?
    I love Inca, but I never heard about them.
    I think Inca's UU is Waka Kamayuk,
    It's a armed reserve of Inca, Inca's emperor call them 200 thousand in two weeks...
    They were Inca's main force.
     
  17. meowschwitz

    meowschwitz Warlord

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2013
    Messages:
    156
    Location:
    NY
    Brazil could get a unique stadium.
     
  18. meowschwitz

    meowschwitz Warlord

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2013
    Messages:
    156
    Location:
    NY
    Egypt could get an Obelisk UI which boosts culture and extra tourism after archeology.
     
  19. Redwalrus

    Redwalrus Chieftain

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2013
    Messages:
    1
    I think Denmark should have a rune stone UI rather than the stave church as they were far more common. they could work by giving +1 :c5culture: per tile and somehow work uniquely with an archaeologist.
     
  20. Tsar NicholasII

    Tsar NicholasII Prince

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2013
    Messages:
    301
    Maybe France could have the Canon obusier de 12 or the Canon de 75 modèle 1897. France was notorious for having the best artillery in the 19th and early 20th Centuries. (Except for the Franco-Prussian War)
     

Share This Page