47%: It begins!

[hobbsyoyo]

So I guess it covers some of the taxes I spoke about seperately, like Social Security tax.

Yeah, I'd say it's like National Insurance.

But I think the term 'payroll tax' isn't one specific tax; it's a blanket terms that covers other taxes on income that are not the direct income tax. Make sense?

 

[JollyRoger]

Just a question for Americans, what is the difference between Income and Payroll Tax?

Income tax is the only tax that matters when conservatives start talking about non-taxpaying freeloaders. Payroll taxes (and all other taxes) start counting when conservative start talking about crushing tax burdens

 

[bhsup]

I know what you're trying to say, but when has anybody cared about the absolute amount of tax he pays. It's completely irrelevant to the discussion unless you're trying to build him into some Randian super hero. And I know for a fact you're better than that.

Yeah, that wasn't really my goal, sorry. I just didn't word it well.

Yes the absolute amount is higher as (e.g.) 15% of 5,000,000 > 20% of 40,000. But IIRC, his income is solely or mostly capital gains. Which means he gets taxed at a lower rate than the income of most people like you and I. And when you factor in all of the tax breaks and loopholes his army of tax lawyers throw in, the rate ends up something like 14.7%. Which is rediculously low, even for capital gains.

This is really more the meat of what I was talking about. You can't really combine income tax and capital gains tax because they are two distinct, separate taxes. I mean you can in general and for what it's worth I think capital gains should just be lumped in with income and taxed the same, but they are not actually the same tax.

Eh, dang it, I am not wording this right.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Yeah, that wasn't really my goal, sorry. I just didn't word it well.


This is really more the meat of what I was talking about. You can't really combine income tax and capital gains tax because they are two distinct, separate taxes. I mean you can in general and for what it's worth I think capital gains should just be lumped in with income and taxed the same, but they are not actually the same tax.

Eh, dang it, I am not wording this right.

I hear what you're saying. I agree that they should be taxed the same. It's fundamentally unfair.

 

[SouthernKing]

just goest' show, mitt really is an out of touch rich guy

 

[Ayatollah So]

American politics are the laughing stock of the rest of the Western world.

which is scary, because the office of the president of the U.S. affects us all.

What can we say except, maybe, "at least we're not India"? <-- a reliable source tells me India edges us out in crazy, by a hair

He was not trying to convince anyone of anything, he was talking to a small group of people who already support him and contributed to his campaign.

Woohoo, as long as you're talking to supporters, facts don't matter. Why that's exactly the kind of person we want to put in a powerful office staffed by people whose job descriptions differ only slightly from "cheerleader for the Big Guy".

 

[Birdjaguar]

He's being purposely misleading. He should have said 47% don't pay income taxes, as everyone pays sales tax, property tax, and other assorted taxes. 10% of Americans are elderly who are on Social Security, so they don't pay it. Another big chunk are poor enough that they get full refunds on their income tax, but still pay payroll, Medicare, Social Security and Medicaid taxes.

Here's a breakdown, courtesy of Windfish:

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

He also conveniently neglected to mention he pays less income taxes than most working class Americans, and that he won't won't release the rest of his taxes (which many assume means he paid 0% income tax in certain years). Also neglected: he games the tax system to pay as little as possible, but doesn't find it at all hypocritical to call out the working poor for not paying income tax because they're poor.

IIRC, 8 of those 10 red states voted for McCain.

 

[luiz]

Woohoo, as long as you're talking to supporters, facts don't matter. Why that's exactly the kind of person we want to put in a powerful office staffed by people whose job descriptions differ only slightly from "cheerleader for the Big Guy".

No, I presume that because he was talking to a small group of commited supporters, he was stating his genuine beliefs, not being "purposefully misleading".

 

[JollyRoger]

If he genuinely believes that 47% do not pay taxes and that they all vote for Obama, he is too deluded to be President.

 

[JohnRM]

As an Obama supporter, I am put in the awkward position of having to defend Rmoney, again.

I think that we all have times when we say things that we believe, but end up exaggerating beyond the point of truth and reality. I think that even Rmoney knows a lot of those people aren't voting for handouts or even for Obama, at all, but sometimes you over-do it. In the end, it depends on the crowd and Rmoney just happened to get caught talking to the kind of crowd he felt more comfortable exaggerating and generalizing to, in that manner.

I understand why its a big deal, not just to partisan hacks of the Democratic Party, but to many other Americans, as well. But this shouldn't be a big deal. What should concern the voters is that Rmoney has to pander to the kind of people that want to hear that crap.

 

[otago]

Damn Romney is clumsy, suggesting that the US military in combat zones are a bunch of bludgers because they pay no income tax while in those zones.

 

[Winner]

So it's as dumb and pointless as most political ads. Still, it's interesting that it's already starting.

If someone made such an ad in this country, he'd be sued.

 

[Luckymoose]

Poor Romney doesn't realize those 47% make up most of his voter base.

 

[Angst]

When is his counterstatement? He seriously needs one. I guess his spin doctors are telling him to time it correctly.

 

[WindFish]

IIRC, 8 of those 10 red states voted for McCain.

Thatsthepoint.jpeg

 

[downtown]

To be fair, Obama won a majority of voters in those red states that did not pay income tax.

 

[Leoreth]

When is his counterstatement? He seriously needs one. I guess his spin doctors are telling him to time it correctly.

Romney already came out yesterday to say that this is what he actually believes, he only wishes he would have phrased it more "delicately".

 

[hobbsyoyo]

As an Obama supporter, I am put in the awkward position of having to defend Rmoney, again.

I think that we all have times when we say things that we believe, but end up exaggerating beyond the point of truth and reality. I think that even Rmoney knows a lot of those people aren't voting for handouts or even for Obama, at all, but sometimes you over-do it. In the end, it depends on the crowd and Rmoney just happened to get caught talking to the kind of crowd he felt more comfortable exaggerating and generalizing to, in that manner.

I understand why its a big deal, not just to partisan hacks of the Democratic Party, but to many other Americans, as well. But this shouldn't be a big deal. What should concern the voters is that Rmoney has to pander to the kind of people that want to hear that crap.

It's really hard to defend the guy when he said the exact opposite of the bolded sentence above. Rhetoric or not, it was a very hamfisted, offensive statement. The kind of thing only rich people would say to one another. Or extreme partisan hacks. Take your pick.

 

[Murky]

I don't think it was pandering. This has been the narrative of the wealthy republicans for some time now. "We are the money makers and they are the money takers." That's how they view things in their mind, when in reality the opposite is more likely to be true. Especially in the case of someone in the business of private equity. They buy up companies, loot them, then force them into bankruptcy to avoid paying pensions.

 

[Angst]

Romney already came out yesterday to say that this is what he actually believes, he only wishes he would have phrased it more "delicately".

Wait what, isn't this rhethorical suicide