A Petition to Merge NES-IOT

[Angst]

Lesson number two: Stop being antagonistic behind our backs and we will be nicer to you.

what is this "we" you talk of. srsly.

 

[Double A]

Well, since you raise it (and I wouldn't say this otherwise): weren't you the one who kicked up an awful OOC fuss when the Netherlands and the Confederation partitioned Polish China and more or less complained that people would never do such a thing in an IOT, demonstrating IOT conventions' lack of verisimilitude in that regard, in a debate that anyone who reads EQ's background thread covering the latter half of the 19th century can see? and am I not right in thinking that your diplomacy was not anything above the ordinary, and your stories, if there were any, unmemorable? I see no particular way in which you failed to treat it as an IOTer normally might approach a NES. And - even considering that - you were a good deal better at it than some IOTers I've seen at NESing.

Yes I did raise a fuss, but that was because I was completely unable to fight back and I figured at the time, the bigger fuss I made, the better my chances of actually getting some friggin help were.

Plus how many guys do you know that react perfectly rationally to getting backstabbed? Do people just chortle, slap their knee, and say "Off with ye then, ya scamp!" or do they actually do everything in their power to let everyone know how pissed they are so they can raise a lynchmob?

 

[Terrance888]

I used to do that when I was backstabbed.

 

[Angst]

I always rage when losing my NES wars.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Well, this is an interesting thread with great discussion and some unnecessary rudeness. I don't have any issues with the games or playing style. The questions that come to my mind are:

1. Is there a noticeable age difference between the two communities? how might that affect everyones views and the impact of joining?
2. Are there reasons NESers should want look beyond the immediate threat of being overrun by the bandit chaos of Attila the IOTer?
3. Should fear of a collapsing community be sufficient reason to migrate to greener pastures others call home?
4. The "top of page" issue is a real one that would need to be addressed.
5. Would the increase in community size and activity create a single forum that was too big for me to manage effectively on my own?
6. How long (if ever) would it take for the communities to integrate themselves at the personal level?
7. Would the merger destroy both communities?
8. NESing is a volatile mix of personalities that generally get along. How will adding another group of differently volatile personalities contribute to everyones gaming pleasure?

 

[Terrance888]

1. I don't know.
2. #neschat has finally gained some kind of stability. iotchat has not. I love my #neschat, so IOTers are welcome to join, as always, as much as anyone else. Please, don't kill it.
3. The difference between fear of collapse, and living through a collapse is very shallow. Sometimes the fear itself may cause collapse. NESers used to have such panics in the past, too.
4. I agree, although I feel it has been somewhat blown out of proportion.
5. You already moderate IOT and NESing. The total amount of games would only have a slight increase due to larger base, but I would expect the total workload to me additive, and in the end possibly easier for you.
6. I would like to think about the FFH NESer group. After their flagship semi-isolated (not be design, mind) NESes failed, it took a couple months to couple years for the FFH "clique" to disappear, depending on which parameters you use.
7.Possibly, depending on how individuals react. IOTers acting immature for the sake of immature, or NESers acting snobbish for the sake of being snobbish, is all possible. I will stay there, no matter what, as long as N3S is still alive.
8. Again, I point to FFH. Got back stabbed SO MANY TIMES. . They were an entirely new group of people who came nearly enmass, and in the end we all benefitted from them. Sure, they were more story based (high fantasy) AND game based (excel stats) than most NESes, but their ideas have assimilated well, and so did their individuals.

EDIT: This reminds me of the FFH NESers for some reason. Anyone else remember them?

 

[Joecoolyo]

Dunno if my opinion is worth anything anymore, seeing as I'm one of the IOT's old guard who kind of stopped playing. But whatever.

I say merge it. Centralize everything, cross-breed, pollinate, whatever, centralization is always good for traffic and what not. Segregation only leads to dwindling communities, smaller player bases, and the creation of elite cliques with very high opinions of themselves. If we merge, I might actually start playing again, maybe.

That being said, I've only just recently joined a NES for the first time evah, and I haven't played an IOT since like, Iron and Blood 2 (or 3? whichever one I was Istanbul in. That was a fun one even though it only lasted like 3 turns), so I have no idea what the communities are like. But if they consist of anything resembling human beings, they can mesh, merge, play side-by-side and with each other with little to no conflict. We'll all be one big happy family.

As an unrelated side note, backstabbing is fun.

 

[ChiefDesigner]

Plus how many guys do you know that react perfectly rationally to getting backstabbed? Do people just chortle, slap their knee, and say "Off with ye then, ya scamp!" or do they actually do everything in their power to let everyone know how pissed they are so they can raise a lynchmob?

First, if you can't back off and accept your losses with dignity and grace, accepting that you've been outplayed, then perhaps the problem is not with everybody else. If you think raising a fuss is the best way to raise an OOC lynchmob to punish IC action, I will respectfully ask you to reconsider your philosophy.

Second, learn to spot incoming stabs, and make friends who will defend you if you're stabbed. It's pretty easy, if you know what to look for.

But if they consist of anything resembling human beings, they can mesh, merge, play side-by-side and with each other with little to no conflict. We'll all be one big happy family.

...have you ever met any actual humans?

Is there a noticeable age difference between the two communities? how might that affect everyones views and the impact of joining?

My understanding is that the average IOTer is younger than the average NESer, but I know I drive up the average age of NES considerably on my own.

Are there reasons NESers should want look beyond the immediate threat of being overrun by the bandit chaos of Attila the IOTer?

NES and IOT are internet communities of like-minded individuals who have been socialized in different ways. Merging the two communities will result in an "IOT clique" and a "NES clique", with less cross pollination than one might expect.

Should fear of a collapsing community be sufficient reason to migrate to greener pastures others call home?

IMO, it's defeatism -- it's believing that your particular genre of forum game needs to poach other players in order to survive. If you feel the need to emigrate en masse, so be it, but that feels to me like a surrender.

Would the increase in community size and activity create a single forum that was too big for me to manage effectively on my own?

Unlikely; I don't expect traffic to change all that much.

How long (if ever) would it take for the communities to integrate themselves at the personal level? Would the merger destroy both communities?

IMO, what is most likely to happen is that NES, as the larger community, absorbs a few IOTers, and the rest either form a clique, colluding to dominate games, or drift off to greener pastures. In a few months or so post-merger, IOT will effectively cease to exist.

NESing is a volatile mix of personalities that generally get along. How will adding another group of differently volatile personalities contribute to everyones gaming pleasure?

There will be flamewars. People will leave, because their feelings are hurt and because the way norms and assumptions change will not be to their liking. Whether you find that a natural part of community building is up to your individual outlook.

 

[Double A]

First, if you can't back off and accept your losses with dignity and grace, accepting that you've been outplayed, then perhaps the problem is not with everybody else. If you think raising a fuss is the best way to raise an OOC lynchmob to punish IC action, I will respectfully ask you to reconsider your philosophy.

Well, the thing is, it happened over the course of a hiatus, so I literally could not do a single damn thing about it. ZD more or less said "hey there's a hiatus, let's stab AA."

Also I think it was like two years ago? At least one. It was my first NES, and aside from that space worldbuilding one that lasted for like a month, my only one.

 

[Crezth]

NES and IOT are internet communities of like-minded individuals who have been socialized in different ways. Merging the two communities will result in an "IOT clique" and a "NES clique", with less cross pollination than one might expect.

Yeah, wow, can you imagine if NESers started acting elitist? Boy howdy, that'd be the day.

 

[Joecoolyo]

...have you ever met any actual humans?

One or two, and they've been amiable enough.

 

[merciary]

EDIT: This reminds me of the FFH NESers for some reason. Anyone else remember them?

I think there's a few of us still active though most aren't as active as during the "heyday" of FFHNES's.

 

[NinjaCow64]

Well, this is an interesting thread with great discussion and some unnecessary rudeness. I don't have any issues with the games or playing style. The questions that come to my mind are:

1. Is there a noticeable age difference between the two communities? how might that affect everyones views and the impact of joining?
2. Are there reasons NESers should want look beyond the immediate threat of being overrun by the bandit chaos of Attila the IOTer?
3. Should fear of a collapsing community be sufficient reason to migrate to greener pastures others call home?
4. The "top of page" issue is a real one that would need to be addressed.
5. Would the increase in community size and activity create a single forum that was too big for me to manage effectively on my own?
6. How long (if ever) would it take for the communities to integrate themselves at the personal level?
7. Would the merger destroy both communities?
8. NESing is a volatile mix of personalities that generally get along. How will adding another group of differently volatile personalities contribute to everyones gaming pleasure?

1. I have no idea what the average age of NESers are, but I think that most IOTers are around late highschool/early uni age. So 16-22ish? I think Tani is our oldest member and James is by far our youngest. Age isn't really an issue though, it's maturity and that differs from person to person. I know 12 year olds that act much more mature than their age and I know adults who act very immature. And I think that most IOTers can be mature if they feel like it.

2. Firstly I doubt that Attila the IOTer will come back, he got permabanned months ago. Jokes aside, I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this question. If you are asking wether NESers should be worried about being overrun, then I don't think that they should be. IOT isn't anywhere near as big as NES, player wise. Besides, I really can't see it happening. If you mean that if the NESers accept the risk of the merger would it be worth it then I would be inclined to say yes. The potential for collaboration between the two NESing forum and the increased player base would be enticing. And while some might say "But you can play it in two forums anyway" I think it would work better as one sub-forum, it would increase the player base and encourage cross-pollination, which could potentially bring new and exciting ideas to life.

3. Although I am probably at odds with the majority of the IOT community, I really don't think IOT is collapsing. In my opinion, we are simply experiencing an IOT Winter, where the majority of school and college aged players get attacked by giant piles of coursework and have less time to play/host IOTs, causing a reduction in the amount, quality and size of IOTs. This is opposed to an IOT Spring, where everyone has loads of time and loads of games are spammed everywhere. I totally admit I could be wrong however. The reason I see that we could "migrate to greener pastures" is because it benefits the denizens of the greener pastures as well, for reasons I already have addressed.

4. I don't think it is much of an issue. At the moment I can see that the stickied/active threads (this includes games and things such as Argentina and WWW) in IOT and NES are take up about roughly half of the front page. So then that would cause most of the front page to be filled up with active games, I don't think any games will be pushed onto the back page unless they haven't been posted in them for at least ~3-5 days.

5. Maybe. If so, we can always get more mods.

6. I have no idea.

7. Possibly. But I know in my heart of hearts it would be an amalgamation rather than an implosion and that whatever comes after that would be beautiful.

8. I always feel that part of the fun of IOT are the volatile personalities. Sure, it can get a bit hot and rough at times, but I imagine that it gets like that in NES too. I feel that we will muddle through and that it would help both of us.

That's just my very IOT-centric $0.02 though.

@Terrance: IOTchat has stabilised to some extent although we have kept the URL a secret amongst IOTers to ensure the spammer problem does not come again. I'd happily PM you the URL if you want. Although I doubt that IOT and NES chat would merge straight away, they seem to be very...different places.

 

[christos200]

I play both NES and IOT's, I was supporting a merge, but after Luckymoose's comments, I voted no.

Better vote for this. It is a much better proposal.

 

[Symphony D.]

When you get down to brass tacks, IOTs and NESes are categorically similar. The only thing that's different is the user bases, and the only obstacle to this merger is a deep-seated conviction on the part of NESers that they're "better*" than IOTers. So I say merge the forums, and don't cater to the elitists.

*Some will phrase it more tactically: "We NESers are better at roleplay," "we NESers care more about narrative." This is a flimsy rationalization for what is ultimately simple bigotry, and I know this because NESers are not "better at roleplay," as if such a thing were reliably quantifiable as well as unteachable, they just think that they are.

My arguments against this are here, here, and here, of which I will repost the conclusion:

To sum up my opposition:

1. Serious cultural differences do in fact exist between NES and IOT.
2. Due to CFC policy on inclusion, it is impossible for a GM to moderate behavior in a given game, which is a problem given (1).
3. Given IOT rules and continuing ambiguity therein (what does "unilaterally removing a player from a game" mean? Like when somebody is destroyed in an invasion?) I'm weary of a culture of rules-lawyering and running to the Mods/Admins over in-game actions which in turn can shut down or alter or delay games; fair or not, it's the impression I have of the IOT community.
4. Extant current mutual disinterest between IOT and NES indicates neither party would gain much from unification.
5. There is nothing stopping either party from doing something in the other subforum.
6. Streamlining for the sake of streamlining is not a reason to do anything.

And will furthermore state that the aspiration to certain modes of behavior, if not the reality of them, remains indicative of a serious cultural difference. "The only difference between the USA and the PRC are the people who compose both!" Yes, indeed.

 

[Crezth]

I think the point about moderation with respect to what GMs can and must not do is fair, but the only fair point.

I don't argue that aspiration to certain modes of behavior is all well and good but I seriously question whether it matters. For all we are told about the NESing master race and their IC-play and penchant for world-building, it doesn't seem demonstrably that incompatible with what IOTers do. To suggest that it is is to imply there's more than cultural differences at play, but that NESes are too much for IOTers to handle. Which is an absurd proposition.

Streamlining is an excellent reason to do something. CFC is moderated by a limited number of people with limited time. I shouldn't have to expand this point any further.

 

[Double A]

3. Although I am probably at odds with the majority of the IOT community, I really don't think IOT is collapsing. In my opinion, we are simply experiencing an IOT Winter, where the majority of school and college aged players get attacked by giant piles of coursework and have less time to play/host IOTs, causing a reduction in the amount, quality and size of IOTs. This is opposed to an IOT Spring, where everyone has loads of time and loads of games are spammed everywhere. I totally admit I could be wrong however. The reason I see that we could "migrate to greener pastures" is because it benefits the denizens of the greener pastures as well, for reasons I already have addressed.

I really can't believe that people haven't recognized this trend by now. We were only talking about it 5 months ago and everyone was all "Yeah I can't wait for the summer because then everyone will have free time to make games!" Now that it's near the fall, people actually don't get that the opposite happens? Come on guys, it really does just happen every year, and you all know it.

 

[Camikaze]

A lot of this discussion seems to be assuming that a merging of the NES and IOT forums would mean a merging of the games. To repeat the example I used earlier, Mafia and NOTW are two different games, yet manage to coexist in the same subforum, with predominantly mafia players joining in with NOTW games and vise versa. If the IOT and NES forums were merged, why would it necessarily be the case that either species would change? If the answer is that the two different styles, and thus the two different groups, are incompatible, then I guess it's a matter of some people not wanting cross-pollination, or not wanting an increase in the player base.

 

[Tee Kay]

If the answer is that the two different styles, and thus the two different groups, are incompatible, then I guess it's a matter of some people not wanting cross-pollination, or not wanting an increase in the player base.

Also, not wanting "good" games to be buried by lots of "bad" games.

 

[hoplitejoe]

I think we need to work on not being rude to each other for a bit (Both IOT and NES).

Also if this happened a better sub-forum than NES, IOT or some kinda mix of the two would be good.