A stain on US history...

[Truronian]

So how many people do we think will join terrorist organisations having read about this? Even putting aside the blatant immorality of the CIA's actions, it just doesn't make sense from a saving lives point of view. The CIA are simply becoming the Western monsters that terrorist organisations keep insisting exist. Actions like these terrorist recruitment.

 

[Kaitzilla]

The thousands killed in drone strikes generate far more hatred and recruits than this torture report will.

And the CIA isn't becoming, they are backsliding.

 

[Gary Childress]

So how many people do we think will join terrorist organisations having read about this? Even putting aside the blatant immorality of the CIA's actions, it just doesn't make sense from a saving lives point of view. The CIA are simply becoming the Western monsters that terrorist organisations keep insisting exist. Actions like these terrorist recruitment.

Well, on the (slightly) "bright side", these incidents are coming to light and being investigated. Hopefully those responsible will be punished. Apparently this is the same CIA who had personnel spying on members of congress a while back. Really great bunch of knuckleheads that the "agency" seems to be.

Hopefully Al Qaida will follow suit now and start cracking down on those intentionally beheading innocent civilians.

 

[Samson]

How about all those prisoners that the CIA and America beheaded???

How about all of those women that the CIA and America stoned to death for adultery?

How about all of those people that the CUA and America killed for apostasy?

Oh wait a second, America and the CIA did not do any of that.

Some terrorists got treated unpleasantly, who really cares? In their own countries it would have been red hot pokers and maiming not pretend drowning and sleep deprivation. The report is being released purely for political reasons in the hope that somewhere this will cause an attack on America that can then be blamed on Bush.

America has done more good for more people throughout the world than any other group of people in the history of the world. Most of you sleep safely at night due to America's protection and because better men than you do what is necessary to ensure that safety.

USA!!! Now with better human rights than ISIS!!!

 

[Borachio]

America has done more good for more people throughout the world than any other group of people in the history of the world. Most of you sleep safely at night due to America's protection and because better men than you do what is necessary to ensure that safety.

Oooh. I get that warm bushy feeling just reading your post!

Thanks.

And God Bless America. Truly, it's the finest nation on Earth.

 

[Gary Childress]

Oooh. I get that warm bushy feeling just reading your post!

Thanks.

And God Bless America. Truly, it's the finest nation on Earth.

FWIW, if you don't like us savages in the US, you could try your luck hanging out with members of ISIS.

 

[Borachio]

But I do like America and Americans. It's just that I don't think the US, nor the UK for that matter, is spotless by any means when it comes to things like special rendition.

 

[James Stuart]

FWIW, if you don't like us savages in the US, you could try your luck hanging out with members of ISIS.

Yes, because if you don't like the fact that the US violates civil rights in such a disgusting fashion, you must support ISIL. A democracy is not supposed to torture people. If the best argument you can come up with is, "duh, ISIL is worse," then you don't deserve those human rights your state is violating.

 

[Gary Childress]

@ Boracio: I certainly agree with you there. The US and UK are not "spotless". I hope the incidents of CIA torture are investigated and the people responsible face appropriate consequences.

@ James Stuart: I didn't mean to insinuate that anyone here is a "supporter" of ISIS. I apologize if it seemed that way.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

America has done more good for more people throughout the world than any other group of people in the history of the world. Most of you sleep safely at night due to America's protection and because better men than you do what is necessary to ensure that safety.

Really now

After going through six million pages of documents, the authors concluded that in none of the cases they had looked at did these brutal methods stop a terrorist attack. Meaning that America's reputation, and by extension that of the wider West, has been sullied for no tangible gain.

Better men you say? No tangible gain I say

 

[Borachio]

6 million pages? That's a lot of pages.

That's something like 18,000 novels. One a day for nearly 50 years!

It generally takes me 3 days to read a 300 page novel. So, I'm guessing that no one person has read these 6 million pages.

 

[ArneHD]

The worst part is that nothing will be done about this, no one will be held accountable, no one will change the way the CIA works, no lessons will be learned apart from an increase in cynicism about the world that will help no one.

I suppose that is what hurts the most, the apparent helplessness in the face of monstrous acts.

 

[Gary Childress]

The worst part is that nothing will be done about this, no one will be held accountable, no one will change the way the CIA works, no lessons will be learned apart from an increase in cynicism about the world that will help no one.

I suppose that is what hurts the most, the apparent helplessness in the face of monstrous acts.

FWIW, I hope you are wrong. I guess we'll see what happens in the investigations.

 

[The Strategos]

For those wondering how America could engage it torture, well it is only doing what a plurality of Americans want.

International Business Times

“A majority supporting torture did not emerge until June 2009, six months after the inauguration of [Obama],” according to the study. Researchers considered 32 polls conducted between 2001 and 2009 from a variety of media and survey groups that asked Americans to gauge their support for torturing suspected terrorists. They found that “the mean over the nine-year period is 55 percent in opposition to and 40.8 percent in favor of the use of torture.” Between 2004 and 2009, public opinion polls showed fewer Americans opposed torture, while an increasing number of Americans said they supported some forms of it. Public support for torture hit an all-time high in 2009.

Researchers said the tilt in public opinion toward torture occurred largely because of the politically polarizing nature of the torture debate. “We believe that torture may have become a partisan symbol, distinguishing Republicans from Democrats, that demonstrates hawkishness on national security in the same way that being supportive of the death penalty indicates that a person is tough on crime,” researchers wrote.

Here are some polls I found on the issue:

2001
Would you be willing -- or not willing -- to have the U.S. government Torture known terrorists if they know details about future terrorist attacks in the U.S.
Willing: 45
Not Willing: 53
Unsure: 2


2005
Would you be willing -- or not willing -- to have the U.S. government Torture known terrorists if they know details about future terrorist attacks in the U.S.
Willing: 39
Not Willing: 59
Unsure: 2

2009
Do you think the use of torture against suspected terrorists who may know details about future terrorist attacks against the US is...?
Often Justified 15%
Sometimes Justified 34%
Rarely Justified 22%
Never Justified 25%
Not Sure 12%

Often/Always Justified: 49% (64% among Republicans!)
Rarely/Never Justified: 47%


2012
Do you think the use of torture against suspected terrorists who may know details about future terrorist attacks against the US is...?
Always Justified 19%
Sometimes Justified 28%
Rarely Justified 16%
Never Justified 25%
Not Sure 12%

Often/Always Justified: 47% (73% among Republicans!!)
Rarely/Never Justified: 41%


2014
Do you think the use of torture against suspected terrorists who may know details about future terrorist attacks against the US is...?
Always Justified 16%
Sometimes Justified 33%
Rarely Justified 19%
Never Justified 22%
Not Sure 10%

Often/Always Justified: 49% (73% among Republicans!!)
Rarely/Never Justified: 41%



P.S. In looking up polls I see a local North Carolina TV station is running a completely unscientific web poll, as of the the time I looked at it:

A Senate report says CIA practices following 9/11 inflicted pain and suffering on al-Qaida prisoners beyond legal boundaries and were ineffective. Former CIA chief George Tenet defends the program, saying it saved lives. Which side do you agree with?
Senate: 9.88
CIA: 90.12

 

[Gary Childress]

Well if you put it that way, then maybe torture is justified maybe it isn't. Suppose a terrorist knows about a future plan to fly jet liners into some buildings of another major population center (or worse). Suppose the attack could kill another 3000 innocent people. Should we torture the person to try to get the information from them to stop the attack or just eat the attack? I might think twice about it if asked that way. But if you posed the question should we torture terrorists because they deserve it then I personally would say "no". I would rather see them meet civil justice as a matter of principle. I don't think most Americans are just torture mongers, although after 911 there was a lot of anger and fear going around. How questions are asked makes a difference too.

 

[warpus]

So how many people do we think will join terrorist organisations having read about this? Even putting aside the blatant immorality of the CIA's actions, it just doesn't make sense from a saving lives point of view. The CIA are simply becoming the Western monsters that terrorist organisations keep insisting exist. Actions like these terrorist recruitment.

American foreign policy almost seems to be designed to create extremists.

This sort of thing also makes it a lot tougher for American allies to face other human abuses around the world. If the U.S. is supposed to be some sort of a leader of the west, how is the west going to go after human rights abuses in other countries, when their very leader engages in torture.. and refuses to indict those responsible to a war crimes tribunal?

It pretty much makes a farce of any sort of American criticism of human rights abuses abroad. Some "leader" of the free world. This is bad for everyone involved, except for those other countries who torture and abuse as well.

Should we torture the person to try to get the information from them to stop the attack or just eat the attack?

One thing we're supposed to be learning from all this is that torturing people rarely leads to useful information.

 

[Gary Childress]

One thing we're supposed to be learning from all this is that torturing people rarely leads to useful information.

That certainly seems to be the case. Even if it leads to information that could stop an act of terror it's quite a moral dilemma. My point was that most of the polls cited in the post above seem to allude to some sort of sense of torture in order to save lives. It's sort of like the "Trolley Problem". If an action will harm one person but save countless others, is it worth performing that action? I don't think so many Americans just want to torture terrorists to be torturing terrorists (although sure some people are incensed enough to probably support torture either way). The questions are pretty leading.

 

[warpus]

This is all supposed to be covered under the Geneva convention. It shouldn't be happening. But unfortunately, some people just don't give a crap and think that "national security" overrides international law.

 

[Gary Childress]

This is all supposed to be covered under the Geneva convention. It shouldn't be happening. But unfortunately, some people just don't give a crap and think that "national security" overrides international law.

Well the Geneva convention pretty much goes out the window when terrorists figure out ways of inflicting maximum harm to civilians for minimal cost to their own organization. I mean there was a lot of fear and anger after 911. Not saying it was right to torture anyone just that when a lot of people are asked a question framed in that way you probably will, rather understandably, get a response pretty well split down the middle statistically like that.

 

[classical_hero]

It is much easier what President Obama is doing, just kill them ASAP. That way you can't torture them but have fun blowing them up into lots of little pieces. Who cares if you accidentally kill a few civilians along the way?