A stain on US history...

[warpus]

The fact that Americans are expressing a deep level of disgust, and think that their country has lost its moral compass, is indicative that those Americans haven't lost their moral compass.

But many Americans also seem to be fine with all the torture and all that stuff. It's more than just a bit troubling.

As a non-American, I continue trying very hard to view the country as "the good guys". I want them to be the good guys! I mean, what's the alternative, Russia? China?

But day by day, they are making it harder for me to try to view them as such. Right now they are definitely not "the good guys". There are no good guys. The more I look at conflicts around the world, the more I see bad guys vs bad guys.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

The fact that Americans are expressing a deep level of disgust, and think that their country has lost its moral compass, is indicative that those Americans haven't lost their moral compass.

For me a country is it's citizens, not how corrupt it's leadership is. That is caused by the influence of greed and power which are a part of the moral compass of humanity.

As an American, of what use is my moral compass if the most powerful war making apparatus ever constructed on the face of the earth has my name attached and is navigating by the moral compass of GWBush?

I mean, I will hold onto mine and all, but I hardly consider it a possession that I can take pride in under the circumstances.

 

[Farm Boy]

There are no good guys. The more I look at conflicts around the world, the more I see bad guys vs bad guys.

How very Christian of you!

That's not sarcasm by the way, it's more a welcome to the worldview sort of thing.

 

[Borachio]

Yeah. Life is messy.

There's never been any black and white. Just different shades of grey.

 

[warpus]

See, I grew up being taught that Americans are the good guys and America is paradise.

It's not that these things are now crashing in around me - that began to happen many years ago. It's just that it was actually possible to, with a straight face, and in some capacity, to call the U.S. "the good guys".

That's what's changed. The U.S. are now one of the bad guys, and I don't like that.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

As an American, of what use is my moral compass if the most powerful war making apparatus ever constructed on the face of the earth has my name attached

For one I don't consider your name attached. You elect one bastard over another. They'd have to be, otherwise they'd not be in the position to be elected. Even so, that election doesn't change the dynamic of greed for power that makes that so.

Second, using your moral compassm what alternative actions could you have taken? Was not voting a morally better choice? It would meant the person you thought to be the lesser bastard would have more chance.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

For one I don't consider your name attached. You elect one bastard over another. They'd have to be, otherwise they'd not be in the position to be elected. Even so, that election doesn't change the dynamic of greed for power that makes that so.

Second, using your moral compassm what alternative actions could you have taken? Was not voting a morally better choice? It would meant the person you thought to be the lesser bastard would have more chance.

Having seen "United States of America vs [my name here]" I consider my name to be less attached than most...but 'oh the system (which I technically support by virtue of being born here and not having done anything to change it) only gives me two bad choices to choose from' does not absolve me or anyone else from responsibility.

My moral compass demands that I fight, though it offers me no hope of winning.

 

[Gary Childress]

See, I grew up being taught that Americans are the good guys and America is paradise.

It's not that these things are now crashing in around me - that began to happen many years ago. It's just that it was actually possible to, with a straight face, and in some capacity, to call the U.S. "the good guys".

That's what's changed. The U.S. are now one of the bad guys, and I don't like that.

Many Americans feel the same way. Whether Republican or Democrat, many Americans are dissatisfied with many things that are going on with our country. What specific examples or events make you most feel that way about the US, aside from the CIA's behavior? Or is that the main thing at this point?

 

[warpus]

The increase in inequality, worsening of social mobility, segregated cities, secret courts, secret governmental organizations, torture without war crime tribunals, the only person charged with anything being the person who reported it in the first place, illegal invasions of other countries, interferences in other countries internal affairs, the overthrow of democratically elected governments, government spying on its citizens..

The list is growing.

 

[Farm Boy]

See, I grew up being taught that Americans are the good guys and America is paradise.

It's not that these things are now crashing in around me - that began to happen many years ago. It's just that it was actually possible to, with a straight face, and in some capacity, to call the U.S. "the good guys".

That's what's changed. The U.S. are now one of the bad guys, and I don't like that.

Within the territory of being considered the Big Ol' Good Guy came the responsibility of Why Doesn't the Big Ol' Good Guy do something about this Very Bad Thing? Simple sometimes, that is, even if we fail to do it. But when it becomes Why Doesn't the Big Ol' Good Guy do something about that Big Ol' Bad Guy(s) you force the good guy to muck through the shat. Mucking through makes enemies and unless the paladin state was actually Christ-like to begin with they're going to wind up coming through worse than they went in. Being the "hero" of the Cold War didn't do Americans any favors when it comes to being the good guy. Out of that we got a security apparatus geared for constant war gazing internally and we got a military industrial complex forever gazing greedily outward. If the western world really wants the US to be able to have a shot at dealing with its own stuff(overreaching executive branches and military industrial complexes being powerful things) the US is going to need, need its allies to wade into the muck and mire farther to take some of the load off. Bear in mind Europe doesn't seem to complain too much when the US winds up killing people in Libya at its request or counterbalancing in the Balkans.

But this is a hard argument to make. Unless you live in the pig pen you probably don't want to get crap all over you. But if you let your friend live in there you probably shouldn't be surprised if he eventually starts to wallow in it.

 

[warpus]

I get what you're saying, but you don't need to torture people, overthrow democratic governments, spy on your own citizens, set up secret courts, and so on, if you want to be the "Big Ol' guy".

You can be big and good, if you want to. It's just easier to be a bad guy... but it is by no means a requirement.

 

[Bugfatty300]

The increase in inequality, worsening of social mobility, segregated cities, secret courts, secret governmental organizations, torture without war crime tribunals, the only person charged with anything being the person who reported it in the first place, illegal invasions of other countries, interferences in other countries internal affairs, the overthrow of democratically elected governments, government spying on its citizens..

The list is growing.

Business as usual since 1775.

 

[Farm Boy]

I get what you're saying, but you don't need to torture people, overthrow democratic governments, spy on your own citizens, set up secret courts, and so on, if you want to be the "Big Ol' guy".

You can be big and good, if you want to. It's just easier to be a bad guy... but it is by no means a requirement.

No, really?

 

[warpus]

No, really?

You seemed to be saying the opposite - that if you assume the role of world police, you need to play dirty.

I disagree.. and some of this stuff is really dirty. So dirty that the world came together at one point and decided that it needs to be illegal, forever. And that people who do this sort of stuff need to be locked away.

 

[Farm Boy]

I'm saying the crap doesn't all wash off whether you want it to or not.

We here rightfully consider our World War II vets some of the best humanity we've had to offer. They fought an evil they didn't choose and they gave more than people should be asked to give. There's a story in Ken Burns' The War where a veteran of Guadalcanal recalls that after his platoon retrieved the bodies of some of their friends that had been killed and mutilated at the hands of the Japanese they never took a single prisoner after that. Roll around in the horror of that for a while. These were good men, they they were asked to do terrible things and those terrible things found their way into them. "Need to" or not, it happens. If you want to keep very bad things for accumulating their effects in one place you need to spread the load around.

 

[jackelgull]

I've long since given up on hoping for morality in US government's actions. Now I simply pray for responsibility, but even that seems like a far away pipe dream. Oh and I pray that I don't get up in the US crossfire in its war on terrorism, though considering this article I doubt it.

http://www.wired.com/2011/09/fbi-muslims-radical/all/

Of course, cracked.com is hardly an unbiased source, so perhaps it is overstating things, but the training documents it shows are worrying.

 

[Antilogic]

Judging the reactions of the Americans here, I disagree with that.

We have had quite a few Americans here who endorsed or at least condoned it.

I was thinking more along the lines of potential terrorists in Western nations. Is seems likely to me that a few people may be tipped over the edge by such revelations, and I would be far from surprised if we see said actions used as an excuse for foul deeds in terrorist produced media down the line.

Like the Western guys who went to fight for ISIS? I suppose that is possible. I have no doubt this will be used as a pretense for future attacks.

 

[tetley]

No "potential" about it. The CIA are western terrorists. It was all just documented, by the US Senate.

 

[onejayhawk]

No "potential" about it. The CIA are western terrorists. It was all just documented, by the US Senate.

That's one view.

Another is that this is a hatchet job by a Senator who is losing her position due to the recent election.

A third is that it is a storm in a teapot, because the other side is committing murder by beheading. Water in the face is showing restraint.

IMO none of thos positions are completely wrong.

J

 

[tetley]

I think it's safe to say that opening death camps around the world where people mysteriously disappear to, indefinitely, and get tortured is terrorism.