Report: 'indisputable' evidence of US torture

[Ajidica]

You'd assume. But, unfortunately, if the world worked that way we'd still be sacrificing our pigs and genitals to the High Magus and killing Jews to ward off the Evil Eye, so I'm gonna have to ask you to cough up a source.

Do you go out of your way to be an immature little turd or does it come naturally?

Seriously, we are talking about a highly technical scientific subject that neither of us has any experience it. As such, it is sensible to defer to those who are more informed in the area.

 

[Mouthwash]

Do you go out of your way to be an immature little turd or does it come naturally?

Seriously, we are talking about a highly technical scientific subject that neither of us has any experience it. As such, it is sensible to defer to those who are more informed in the area.

It comes naturally, although experience doesn't hurt (believe me, I got plenty of that from Crezth).

If we are talking about a subject neither of us knows anything about, why are we taking positions on it?

 

[Perfection]

If we are talking about a subject neither of us knows anything about, why are we taking positions on it?

Because we need some subject to base our intellectual pissing contest on?

 

[MobBoss]

So torture is okay because it might work some of the time but hey, all those other times it doesnt work, lets not talk about those and just keep it hush hush.

I dont think you'll be happy until we're waterboarding 5 year old children that have an uncle who is #10 on Al Queda's list.

You think they'll tell their sons, nephews and cousins about how awesome we are?

Even if torture saves lives routinely, it is like a hydra of bad PR.

And its telling that MobBoss, a desk jockey who debates people online over semantics is fully pro torture while the people that actually do it and are part of it are like, whoa, this is still terrible.

Ease up Francis. Stop selling me as 'fully pro-torture'. That's simply a bald-faced lie on your part. My only point was simply to counter the oh so squeemish that deny that certain interrogation techniques can and do result in accurate and actionable intelligence. That's all. And pointing that out simply isnt an endorsement of torture either, but apparently you couldnt help yourself in assuming that it did.

Oh, and if you really think i'd be happy about 5 year old kids being waterboarded, well, you need help. Seriously.

 

[Perfection]

Oh, and if you really think i'd be happy about 5 year old kids being waterboarded, well, you need help. Seriously.

Wait, so you'd be against me wataerboarding my kid for not taking the trash out?

 

[MobBoss]

Wait, so you'd be against me wataerboarding my kid for not taking the trash out?

Well, I hate to disappoint mrt144 and all, but yeah. That'd be a bit much.

 

[Perfection]

Well, I hate to disappoint mrt144 and all, but yeah. That'd be a bit much.

Well damn, I guess I have to make some online returns then.

 

[Ajidica]

An opinion piece is not worth refutation because it doesn't bring evidence to the table. Sorry.

So the professional opinion of a FBI interrogator who interrogated several al-Qaeda members, and then provides specific examples of key intelligence breakthroughs that occurred using traditional, non-torture based methods of information gathering, isn't worth refuting when it directly contradicts your point?

 

[GhostWriter16]

Torture is just morally wrong, period. Romans 3:8, to any of you guys who believe the Bible...

 

[Ajidica]

Torture is just morally wrong, period. Romans 3:8, to any of you guys who believe the Bible...

If torture is morally wrong, why don't they put cushions on the pews?

 

[GhostWriter16]

If torture is morally wrong, why don't they put cushions on the pews?

That seriously cheapens the word torture, however. Waterboarding actually is torture, sitting in a stiff seat ain't.

 

[AlpsStranger]

I dunno. I had to sit in this older church that kinda had a "log cabin" feel too it at my Grandma's funeral. Those pews were impressively, amazingly uncomfortable.

EDIT: Really beautiful church, though.

 

[Oerdin]

I hate to say it but at this point Obama bares part of the blame as he's spent five years protecting the torturers and has even continued some of their policies. This is how horrible things build their way up to politically acceptable policies.

 

[AlpsStranger]

I don't hate to say it at all. I think you should shout it from the rooftops if the mood takes you.

 

[Borachio]

EDIT: An opinion piece is not worth refutation because it doesn't bring evidence to the table. Sorry.

Look. It's only nominally an opinion piece. This comment of yours is just a knee jerk reaction. Nothing more. Sorry.

And, for your information, expert testimony of a someone with first hand experience of a subject is very often, in courts of law, the only evidence that you'll ever be expected to provide.

Once you open this door of "well, it's only opinion," you'll never be able to stand firm on any issue at all.

(This may not be a bad thing, of course. But, to be consistent, you'd have to assume that all your opinions are nothing but opinion too. And you might lose a little certainty.)

The inspector general’s report was written precisely because many of the C.I.A. operatives complained about what they were being ordered to do. The inspector general then conducted an internal audit of the entire program. In his report, he questions the effectiveness of the harsh techniques that were authorized. And he slams the use of “unauthorized, improvised, inhumane and undocumented detention and interrogation techniques.” This is probably why the enhanced interrogation program was shelved in 2005.

Meanwhile, the professionals in the field are relieved that an ineffective, unreliable, unnecessary and destructive program — one that may have given Al Qaeda a second wind and damaged our country’s reputation — is finished.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Is anybody really surprised by this report?

I think this is the most telling part of the conclusion of the bipartisan investigation:

"The public record strongly suggests there was no useful information gained from going to the dark side" and engaging in torture, said David Irvine, a former Republican Utah state legislator and retired Army brigadier-general who served on the task force. "We have been badly misled by false confessions derived from brutal interrogations."

Professional investigators have known for ages that literally nothing is gained by using sadistic tactics from bad Hollywood movies to try to gain information from suspects. But that is certainly not going to stop the US military from continuing to use these tactics, as well as our supposed allies from continuing to torture and murder people who apparently even continue to be taught these tactics by the US military at Fort Benning and elsewhere.

 

[mrt144]

Ease up Francis. Stop selling me as 'fully pro-torture'. That's simply a bald-faced lie on your part. My only point was simply to counter the oh so squeemish that deny that certain interrogation techniques can and do result in accurate and actionable intelligence. That's all. And pointing that out simply isnt an endorsement of torture either, but apparently you couldnt help yourself in assuming that it did.

Oh, and if you really think i'd be happy about 5 year old kids being waterboarded, well, you need help. Seriously.

You're an ends justify the means kind of guy.

 

[MobBoss]

You're an ends justify the means kind of guy.

Not on everything, but on some things, absolutely.

But I wouldnt ever hurt a 5 year old kid. Even you should be ashamed of alleging that.

 

[GhostWriter16]

Not on everything, but on some things, absolutely.

But I wouldnt ever hurt a 5 year old kid. Even you should be ashamed of alleging that.

Honestly, if "Ends justifies the means" were actually a thing, I honestly don't see why torturing a five year old is any worse than torturing an innocent adult. That just seems like a way to make the torturing of the innocent adult look better. The reality is that anyone in any position of power who advocates torture or especially orders torture of anyone should spend a very, very long time behind bars... at minimum. I could even go for having them executed. This is NOT OK.

And you're definitely leaning in the "Ends justifies means" direction. I'm not saying in every single case, but you don't really subscribe to anything even close to deontological ethics. Which, from a Christian, is odd, albeit common.

 

[MobBoss]

Of course torturing a kid is far, far worse than torturing an adult.

If you cant see that I feel sorry for you.

And please stop bringing the Christian thing up unless it's actually a point of the conversation. That's just you being needlessly judgemental, and there isnt any cause for it.