A stain on US history...

[Light Cleric]

It really is pretty messed up, both the extent of the torture and the extent of the deception.

From the SF Chronicle:

Staffers said a document from 2002 indicated that the agency had been preparing a briefing for Bush, but that CIA records showed that unnamed White House officials told the agency that the president “would not be getting the briefing” — implying that some administration officials were also hiding information from the president.

Feinstein quoted then-CIA counsel John Rizzo as saying in a 2003 memo that then-Secretary of State Colin Powell “would blow his stack” if he were briefed about the program. The California senator quoted CIA records as saying the agency had also withheld information about the interrogations from then-Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld.

So the CIA and some people within the administration covered up brutal techniques that they knew weren't effective so they could keep on torturing people for kicks?

Now, of course, this does lead to the question of "Did they really WANT to know?". I mean, this suggests they didn't and people were working to make sure they didn't, so I don't know that this is a "plausible deniability" thing ala Iran-Contra, but I don't think politicians deserve the benefit of the doubt on squat. I'm not really sure what to think on that point.

 

[Gary Childress]

It is much easier what President Obama is doing, just kill them ASAP. That way you can't torture them but have fun blowing them up into lots of little pieces. Who cares if you accidentally kill a few civilians along the way?

I always care when civilians are accidentally killed. Don't you?

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

I always care when civilians are accidentally killed. Don't you?

He doesn't. He doesn't give a flying frog about Palestinian civilians.

 

[warpus]

Well the Geneva convention pretty much goes out the window when terrorists figure out ways of inflicting maximum harm to civilians for minimal cost to their own organization. I mean there was a lot of fear and anger after 911. Not saying it was right to torture anyone just that when a lot of people are asked a question framed in that way you probably will, rather understandably, get a response pretty well split down the middle statistically like that.

Terrorists are terrorists - they are going to be nasty by definition. We can't impose the rule of law on them, they are going to do what they want.

The Geneva convention and other international laws prohibiting torture are there for those of us who are civilized. Which for some reason the U.S. doesn't seem to think it is - while at the same time claiming to be a "leader". Maybe a leader in torture? But no, they're not even that - I think other countries have them beat. They're all over the place, really.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Terrorists are terrorists - they are going to be nasty by definition. We can't impose the rule of law on them, they are going to do what they want.

Terrorists are what you get when you declare war on people who have no access to other means to defend themselves.

 

[Gary Childress]

Terrorists are terrorists - they are going to be nasty by definition. We can't impose the rule of law on them, they are going to do what they want.

The Geneva convention and other international laws prohibiting torture are there for those of us who are civilized. Which for some reason the U.S. doesn't seem to think it is - while at the same time claiming to be a "leader". Maybe a leader in torture? But no, they're not even that - I think other countries have them beat. They're all over the place, really.

No. The US isn't civilized. That's why no one is concerned about the allegations of CIA torture. That's why we kidnap Iraqi hostages and saw their heads off with a steak knife if terrorists don't meet our demands. And all those poll questions were really asking, "would you like to torture innocent civilians for kicks and giggles", to which a majority answered "yes"? Those poor terrorists OTOH don't know any better. They're like my cat who likes to torture mice. They don't possess sentience nor the ability to make moral discernments. So we shouldn't expect anything more from the poor "savages" than what they do.

Personally I think we should just forget this stupid war. Let the chips fall where they may. If the Kurds get overrun and ISIS were to keep going until it reaches Bosnia, who in the US should care?

 

[Borachio]

Terrorists are what you get when you declare war on people who have no access to other means to defend themselves.

Or no other means of getting their voice heard, perhaps.

But I don't think it's an invariable rule: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Army_Faction.

I think the RAF was the result of a bunch of intellectuals sitting around thinking stuff. And coming up with the conclusion that killing people was a good idea. I think they were wrong.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Or no other means of getting their voice heard, perhaps.

But I don't think it's an invariable rule: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Army_Faction.

I think the RAF was the result of a bunch of intellectuals sitting around thinking stuff. And coming up with the conclusion that killing people was a good idea. I think they were wrong.

They may have been wrong about Germany at the time being a fascist state. They were probably correct in assuming that if they "got their voices heard" they would be met with violence though. Since the state claims a monopoly on violence terrorism is the only recourse. It isn't like people can step out in the street and challenge the police to a fair fight...unless it involves a trip to Mexico.

 

[Farm Boy]

Oooh. I get that warm bushy feeling just reading your post!

Thanks.

And God Bless America. Truly, it's the finest nation on Earth.

Chicagoland is getting pleasantly wintry this time of year. Found that hat of yours yet?

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Chicagoland is getting pleasantly wintry this time of year. Found that hat of yours yet?

I think the term "Chicagoland" is brilliant. We have a similar term for Los Angeles and all of its sprawling attachments, but somehow "la la land" just doesn't carry the appropriate gravitas.

 

[Angst]

A plague on your house, mud people.

 

[downtown]

This stuff makes me physically sick. This country has truly lost their moral compass.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

This stuff makes me physically sick. This country has truly lost their moral compass.

This presumes it ever had one.

It is a country founded in bloody revolution, not long ago in the perspective of history, on land that neither the revolutionaries nor their opponents could claim any right to by birth. If it is ever going to have a moral compass it is going to have to develop one. The good news is that you represent a group that is at least willing to consider that it doesn't have one currently, and that group may be growing fast enough to start the process.

 

[Gary Childress]

The whole country has lost its moral compass because many people are concerned about allegations that some in the CIA may have used torture and an investigation is being conducted?

 

[Antilogic]

So how many people do we think will join terrorist organisations having read about this? Even putting aside the blatant immorality of the CIA's actions, it just doesn't make sense from a saving lives point of view. The CIA are simply becoming the Western monsters that terrorist organisations keep insisting exist. Actions like these terrorist recruitment.

I agree with Kait (first time for everything, I suppose). Everything in this report was heavily suspected already, and I don't think there are that many potential terrorists that heard radical sermons from imams, had family members killed by drones, or what have you and then said something along the lines of "but I'll wait until the infidels release that report on the CIA before I'll do anything."

The worst part is that nothing will be done about this, no one will be held accountable, no one will change the way the CIA works, no lessons will be learned apart from an increase in cynicism about the world that will help no one.

I suppose that is what hurts the most, the apparent helplessness in the face of monstrous acts.

That's a big part of it, at least for me.

This stuff makes me physically sick. This country has truly lost their moral compass.

Yeah, this. It hurts to see it laid out so cleanly.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

This stuff makes me physically sick. This country has truly lost their moral compass.

Judging the reactions of the Americans here, I disagree with that.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Judging the reactions of the Americans here, I disagree with that.

Interpretation?

Possible: we have a moral compass, we have just allowed our leadership to not navigate by it and we thus take no responsibility for where we have ended up?

 

[Borachio]

The fact that Americans are expressing a deep level of disgust, and think that their country has lost its moral compass, is indicative that those Americans haven't lost their moral compass.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

For me a country is it's citizens, not how corrupt it's leadership is. That is caused by the influence of greed and power which are a part of the moral compass of humanity.

 

[Truronian]

I agree with Kait (first time for everything, I suppose). Everything in this report was heavily suspected already, and I don't think there are that many potential terrorists that heard radical sermons from imams, had family members killed by drones, or what have you and then said something along the lines of "but I'll wait until the infidels release that report on the CIA before I'll do anything."

I was thinking more along the lines of potential terrorists in Western nations. Is seems likely to me that a few people may be tipped over the edge by such revelations, and I would be far from surprised if we see said actions used as an excuse for foul deeds in terrorist produced media down the line.