[RD] Abortion, once again

Youbewrong. Roe was overturned because it was sloppy jurisprudence. You should be happy the court is trying to show a little professionalism.
You an attorney? You understand Roe used previous rulings on OTC contraceptive purchasing, allowing biracial marriage, etc. to justify Roe. These precedents established a barrier separating governments from people's personal decisions, the so-called right to privacy. Pretty standard Supreme Court ruling.

By the way, all five of the justices vowed in their confirmation hearings that they accepted precedents as Roe as settled law. Professionals don't lie.
 
All five? I thought it was only a few of the recent ones? Though I'm asking out of curiosity, it's not like the distinction changes anything
 
That think you're doing, when you tell people to just deal with it? We all use "incendiary rhetoric" based on the perspective of the people it's being directed at.

You should perhaps consider why you find it alienating. Because you don't seem to consider why people might find yours similar.

You're conflating Church and state, by the by. You may find this appeal works less on people with different belief systems, much less people who have can demonstrate that in fact society accepts this on a daily basis (like Senethro just pointed out).

I'm already voting the right way you don't have to convince me.

Who you do have to convince is some of the deplorables in the right locations in the USA to prevent things like this from happening.

But calling them bigots and deplorables is better idea apparently. Even if true they get to vote so go figure.

I'm not even American but the only laws hardcoded are in the constitution and even they're open to interpretation.

USA isn't a democracy it's a representative republic
Working as designed states can have different laws. That's working as intended.

These are facts. Inconvenient but last few years a few people seem to think there opinion is fact and they're supported by various idiots online.

People also take things for granted. Here we don't have a constitution and such law is only an act of parliament. A simple majority can revoke them. Theoretically anyway it would cause a poo storm.

The strategy has been bad the messaging is bad and they gave up in certain states years ago focusing on placed like Florida. Oops.

Not claiming the current situation or USA system is fair, right etc. It's not but it's what they have.
 
Is there a silver lining in any of this? Clearly not for the women who will immediately suffer from it, but are there any potential political advantages here? Yes, I know that sounds detached and a bit inhumane.

To what extent would "states rights" be of interest to typically Democratic states? I always see this idea attached to Republicans.

The main advantage I see is the drain of young people from Southern states, which are already the poorest, leaving them with an increasingly aging population while helping to contradict that tendency in typically Democratic states. The main victims will be the poorest within those states, as always, since they have more difficulty to move across state borders. Southern states are likely to become even more "red", older, and crucially, with a less qualified population, which will further degrade their capacity to compete in a capitalist economy as companies seek to invest elsewhere.

On the other hand, as someone who isn't American, the idea of federal government having less power doesn't come across as all that bad (to me and others living outside the US). Is such a decision by the Supreme Court likely to cause a process of further decentralization? Or is this just a one off thing, disguised in the language of "states rights" because it is convenient? The US and China have too much power concentrated in their central government as it is, so a softening of that might be desirable. But this is probably a gullible notion, and a recently inaugurated Republican government in 2025 would gladly use federal power to enforce a nation wide ban.
 
Is there a silver lining in any of this? Clearly not for the women who will immediately suffer from it, but are there any potential political advantages here? Yes, I know that sounds detached and a bit inhumane.

To what extent would "states rights" be of interest to typically Democratic states? I always see this idea attached to Republicans.

The main advantage I see is the drain of young people from Southern states, which are already the poorest, leaving them with an increasingly aging population while helping to contradict that tendency in typically Democratic states. The main victims will be the poorest within those states, as always, since they have more difficulty to move across state borders. Southern states are likely to become even more "red", older, and crucially, with a less qualified population, which will further degrade their capacity to compete in a capitalist economy as companies seek to invest elsewhere.

On the other hand, as someone who isn't American, the idea of federal government having less power doesn't come across as all that bad (to me and others living outside the US). Is such a decision by the Supreme Court likely to cause a process of further decentralization? Or is this just a one off thing, disguised in the language of "states rights" because it is convenient? The US and China have too much power concentrated in their central government as it is, so a softening of that might be desirable. But this is probably a gullible notion, and a recently inaugurated Republican government in 2025 would gladly use federal power to enforce a nation wide ban.

It might drive more voters to the Democrats.

If it's unpopular as polls suggest they could tie representatives who voted for it.

Downstream 2024 might bite GoP in the ass.
 
These people of which I speak? Neighbors, friends, colleagues, and most importantly, people I met while 26 years as a journalist. I knew two strong antiabortion women who themselves got abortions, but they did it for the " right" reasons. The vast majority of people I interact with are those I see face to face.
Ah okay, your initial post made it sound like you spoke with everyone in the pro-life movement but you're just making a broad statement based on anecdotal evidence
 
So you accuse me of setting up straw man arguments before promptly misrepresenting my position and calling me misogynistic. Again. Okay. I think I've seen enough for now

I read your position and quoted it in my initial reply to your outrage on me not understanding your position. I feel like you are playing forum debate games and that in itself on such an important topic is misogynistic. So try to understand I'm not jsut name calling here, I'm emphatically stating your take is misogynistic. It is unable to be otherwise since you are consistently stating that their should be legal ramifications (these include death of the mother) for a woman deciding what happens to her body.
 
Youbewrong. Roe was overturned because it was sloppy jurisprudence. You should be happy the court is trying to show a little professionalism.

This court has been/ currently is/ and always will be trash as long as it is constructed in such an authoritarian boot thugged manner.
 
I read your position and quoted it in my initial reply to your outrage on me not understanding your position.
Just because you read one post doesn't mean you understand my position; I said my first post was on page 11
I feel like you are playing forum debate games and that in itself on such an important topic is misogynistic.
I don't know what "forum debate games" you think I'm playing not do I understand how you're connecting that to misogyny. Although you seem to connect to everything. Do you have a quota or something?
So try to understand I'm not jsut name calling here, I'm emphatically stating your take is misogynistic.
I get it, everything's misogynistic. More to the point, you haven't really shown you understand my position at all
It is unable to be otherwise since you are consistently stating that their should be legal ramifications (these include death of the mother) for a woman deciding what happens to her body.
When and what have I been "consistently stating" about "legal ramifications"? I don't know what you're on about
 
If I'm skimming the history correctly, the major players in Roe v Wade (Burger and Blackmum) were appointed by Nixon and confirmed with strong majorities by the Senate. And it's being over-ruled by the votes of two people who scraped into their seats, one of those nearly illegitimately (and not without degrading the entire institution in the process).

There's something that the rightwing in the United States recognizes. Only power matters. A TKO is still recorded as a win. There's a lesson there.
 
There's something that the rightwing in the United States recognizes. Only power matters. A TKO is still recorded as a win. There's a lesson there.
Yep - the New England Patriots still officially won those Super Bowls even though they cheated. The Boston Red Sox still won the 2004 World Series even though some of their players were later shown to have taken steroids. The Astros still won the 2017 World Series even though they stole signs & cheated.

Wins don't come off the board just because underhanded methods were used to get them. R's understand this. I wish there was a remedy other than "D's should do it too!" but I honestly don't see one. And even then, I can't bring myself to advocate for "D's should should do it too!"
 
I made the decision not to have kids in 1996. Not hard to use contraception. Figured the world would go to crap back then.
Why are you assuming that everyone who wants contraception has easy access to it?

Why are you assuming that every child who is near or at the age of puberty is even being taught about contraception, and that "just say no" is sufficient? (welcome to the sex education that the current Minister of Education wants in the curriculum she's hell-bent on forcing on the students of this province).
 
Why are you assuming that everyone who wants contraception has easy access to it?

Why are you assuming that every child who is near or at the age of puberty is even being taught about contraception, and that "just say no" is sufficient? (welcome to the sex education that the current Minister of Education wants in the curriculum she's hell-bent on forcing on the students of this province).

Point it was drummed into us in 90's.

Just say no (drugs) and the std pictures worked in me though.
 
Well the Court seems set to rule there is no right to abortion. And if the law says there is no right to abortion, how can you advocate for abortion rights then?
The same way you can advocate against them now. I don't quite get what you're trying to infer here, that the law permanently and irrevocably suppresses free speech? Or is this just an attempted gotcha?
In societies in which people vote on policymakers, personal morality is inconsequential?
Pretty much, yup. Particularly in the States where the long-running two-party system has completely cratered nuance because any vote involves beating one person or the other, with nothing inbetween. But heck, even in a functioning, healthy democracy, compromise is what makes the system work, so personal morality will at best always be compromised against what is politically at-stake. In the real-world examples we have, it's basically inconsequential in a large amount of cases.
Again, show do you advocate against slavery or Apartheid if you defer to the law? Moreover, if rights are based purely on what's legal, then you cannot assert something as a right until it is law. So, based on this logic, if something's not law and therefore not a right, then you're not advocating for a right, you're advocating for your personal morality to become a right
I didn't say anything about deferring to the law. I was simply pointing out your question was completely illogical because you were trying to suggest there was an authority with regards to killing (innocent) people. But you haven't yourself explained what this authority is or how it defines my ability to kill people, outside of the law, and you're now criticising unjust laws, so really I don't see any consistent point that you're actually making. Could you try explaining what you're getting at?
I'm already voting the right way you don't have to convince me.
I don't really care how you're voting (in NZ, on issues relating to NZ). I was talking about how you're (again, ironically) alienating people that you may need as allies in the future yourself.
 
The same way you can advocate against them now. I don't quite get what you're trying to infer here, that the law permanently and irrevocably suppresses free speech? Or is this just an attempted gotcha?

Pretty much, yup. Particularly in the States where the long-running two-party system has completely cratered nuance because any vote involves beating one person or the other, with nothing inbetween. But heck, even in a functioning, healthy democracy, compromise is what makes the system work, so personal morality will at best always be compromised against what is politically at-stake.

I didn't say anything about deferring to the law. I was simply pointing out your question was completely illogical because you were trying to suggest there was an authority with regards to killing (innocent) people. But you haven't yourself explained what this authority is or how it defines my ability to kill people, outside of the law, and you're now criticising unjust laws, so really I don't see any consistent point that you're actually making. Could you try explaining what you're getting at?

I don't really care how you're voting (in NZ, on issues relating to NZ). I was talking about how you're (again, ironically) alienating people that you may need as allies in the future yourself.

Not that worried about a couple of them think I'll live.
 
Again, ironically, I don't think you understand that others may therefore hold the same view of you :) Surely that's fine, right?

Absolutely except I'm not trying to convince anyone on any particular belief.

The world has a wide variety of viewpoints some of which is repugnant but you can't really force them to your PoV.
 
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