[RD] Abortion, once again

The way it is normally done in the UK is you know when it matters if someone is pregnant and when such comes up you tell the patient and then ask.

don't know how much it happens in uk, but in usa it's not uncommon for patients to have multiple physicians and staff working with/for them. having details, even details that should be fairly obvious, missed is a too-common form of malpractice. hospitals can straight up lose track of where their patients are physically located in the building for non-trivial periods of time. in that context, it's a better idea to have relevant data about the patient in the chart than having the possibility that important details like this are missed internally.

what i'm not okay with is government randomly violating hipaa/taking the information for itself. though i don't know what rights people in poland have, i would expect they have at least something similar to hipaa there.
 
don't know how much it happens in uk, but in usa it's not uncommon for patients to have multiple physicians and staff working with/for them. having details, even details that should be fairly obvious, missed is a too-common form of malpractice. hospitals can straight up lose track of where their patients are physically located for non-trivial periods of time. in that context, it's a better idea to have relevant data about the patient in the chart than not.

what i'm not okay with is government randomly violating hipaa/taking the information for itself. though i don't know what rights people in poland have, i would expect they have at least something similar to hipaa there.
I do not actually know the details, but I think they basically go down a list of important questions before they do anything. And it always starts with "What is your date of birth". You can end up answering that question 100 times in a day in hospital.
 
From Wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embryo_loss
Embryo loss (also known as embryo death or embryo resorption) is the death of an embryo at any stage of its development which in humans, is between the fifth and tenth week of gestation.[1] Failed development of an embryo often results in the disintegration and assimilation of its tissue in the uterus. Loss during the early stages of prenatal development of the fetus results in the similar process of fetal resorption.[2] Embryo loss often happens without an awareness of pregnancy, and an estimated 40 to 60% of all embryos do not survive.[3]


From Wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetal_resorption
Fetal resorption (also known as fetus resorption) is the disintegration and assimilation of one or more fetuses in the uterus at any stage after the completion of organogenesis, which, in humans, is after the ninth week of gestation. Before organogenesis, the process is called embryo loss.[1] Resorption is more likely to happen early on in the gestation than later on; a later death of a fetus is likely to result in a miscarriage.[2]


The mother body applies a whole set of (evolutionary developed) conditions after conception to make sure no energy is spilled by the mother in embryos that are considered not good enough for offspring.
Clearing the womb ASAP for a new conception.

EDIT
When I was still a kid it was custom not to talk really on pregnancy until after 3-4 month or so.
And when a woman had the bad luck of a natural miscarriage other people often abused that by gossip on that woman having done something bad.
Even in the early 90ies, when my ex got from her first pregnancy a what we call a "wind-ei" (wind-egg) my mother in law had again one of her evil moments.
 
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I do not actually know the details, but I think they basically go down a list of important questions before they do anything. And it always starts with "What is your date of birth". You can end up answering that question 100 times in a day in hospital.

there are definitely protocols. and they can definitely still screw up basic things regardless. i have personally observed some of it, but it's not hard to find stats on basic process mistakes too.


i expect it would be very difficult to prosecute abortions happening during this timeframe as a result. state would have to a) know it happened and b) demonstrate burden of proof that the mother had any control of the embryo loss/chose it. for "black market" operations, that would be functionally impossible to detect and prove.

quoted makes a reasonably strong case that abortion ban during 1st trimester shouldn't be done (at least up to 10wk), as it will be costly and questionable to attempt to enforce it and this is during a time period where miscarriage is still common (relative to later).
 
quoted makes a reasonably strong case that abortion ban during 1st trimester shouldn't be done (at least up to 10wk), as it will be costly and questionable to attempt to enforce it and this is during a time period where miscarriage is still common (relative to later).

yes
with very difficult to establish a max acceptable pregnancy period.

Like with any big project, you try spot mistakes as early as possible because the further you are in the project, the more costly to change or abandon the project.
I did not search for data where the natural abortion percentage is plotted against pregnancy duration.
But you would expect a line that starts high and then goes over time asymptotic to zero. No clear natural boundary.
 
But you would expect a line that starts high and then goes over time asymptotic to zero. No clear natural boundary.
It is hard to measure, I do not think we could accurately draw a graph. I would not expect it to be asymptotic. I bet it has a peak a the end, and may well have peaks around heart formation, gastrulation, implantation, max growth rate and a number of other thresholds.
 
But you would expect a line that starts high and then goes over time asymptotic to zero. No clear natural boundary.

i agree with samson in that i don't think that's true. not in projects, and not in gestation lol. at some point, you have the building, or baby, respectively. the line, however it was defined, was crossed at some point when you observe these things!

i agree that in most cases a graph of "progress" in this analogy won't be linear, and that "costs" (direct and opportunity) both increase over time.

anyway, the whole point of abortion legislation is to define when they are allowed to be done, and when they are not. what we lack are good, coherent reasons to prefer some points in gestation over others. things like "the baby is born" or "the fetus doesn't exist yet" are cutoff points obviously, but the more basis we have/less arbitrary we are in drawing the line somewhere between "start of pregnancy" and "birth", the more sound the law is.
 
It is hard to measure, I do not think we could accurately draw a graph. I would not expect it to be asymptotic. I bet it has a peak a the end, and may well have peaks around heart formation, gastrulation, implantation, max growth rate and a number of other thresholds.

yes I agree to those milestones.
And just like with milestones in big RL projects they are also decision moments because they contain forecast updates for continuation.

But high level those are details for the general shape of the diagram.

Here an example of such a treshold, a spectactular one:
https://www.npr.org/2013/05/02/1806...ark-embryos-to-eat-each-other?t=1654895886586
A recent scientific study shows that sand tiger shark babies eat their litter mates in the womb in the attempt to be the embryo that is ultimately born. Melissa Block speaks with study author Demian Chapman, an assistant professor at Stoney Brook University in the School of Marine and Atmospheric Science, on why survival of the fittest in sand tiger sharks starts before birth.

And in humans this fight can also be there between male spermatids that encounter spermatids of another male.
I cannot find fast an article on that but competition is fierce and handled in many ways in various species
(this wiki on the latter)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sperm_competition

and here a wiki on how the conception succes rate is handled to reduce inbreeding:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gryllus_bimaculatus

For humans it is thought that much of that preventing of inbreeding is handled by smelling and kissing. Is handled during courting.
The first milestone of that project.
Dragging feet when not enough choice available.

Anyway
our body has lots of mechanisms to abort the project as soon as is clear that further cost are no longer justified and a reset is needed.
A woman sensing her body in that respect in the right way (body-mind quality) and deciding abortion is likely only helping the natural process.
 
Anyway
our body has lots of mechanisms to abort the project as soon as is clear that further cost are no longer justified and a reset is needed.
A woman sensing her body in that respect in the right way (body-mind quality) and deciding abortion is likely only helping the natural process.
Indeed, and taking into account events outside her body as well.
 
i agree with samson in that i don't think that's true. not in projects, and not in gestation lol
A lot of RL machinery investment proposals passed my desk and many having no chance at all from the start having seen so much wasted effort.
The trick is to have a process whereby you prevent that wasting and direct that time and efforts to projects that do have a chance. I put in quite some efforts during my job time to learn the relevant managers that. Helped by getting them understanding our company strategy.
I was also involved in acquisitions and there you have also those steps from glancing through and a visit (happening many times, just a regular agenda point for status of the list) up to the point that when everybody in HQ is already so much in favor that telling them to ditch that project in the last stage is as good as impossible (happened to me only once and I was right, so we acquired a problem)
 
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A lot of RL machinery investment proposals passed my desk and many having no chance at all from the start having seen so much wasted effort.

you're the expert in the context mentioned, but i'd venture a guess that at least some of these proposals would also not look like asymptotes when graphed (aka they'd get nowhere near the goal regardless).

gestation doesn't either of course. usually you get the fetus crossing the line, but if it doesn't for any reason other than abortion it's either very early in term or a catastrophic failure to 0 that nobody wants (miscarriage).
 
you're the expert in the context mentioned, but i'd venture a guess that at least some of these proposals would also not look like asymptotes when graphed (aka they'd get nowhere near the goal regardless).

gestation doesn't either of course. usually you get the fetus crossing the line, but if it doesn't for any reason other than abortion it's either very early in term or a catastrophic failure to 0 that nobody wants (miscarriage).

fair enough
 
usually you get the fetus crossing the line
We are not sure about that. The current estimate of conception to term survival is in the 40 - 60% range, but it used to be ~25%. Once the woman gets to her thirties it goes down loads.
 
We are not sure about that. The current estimate of conception to term survival is in the 40 - 60% range, but it used to be ~25%. Once the woman gets to her thirties it goes down loads.

my intention was to exclude the early-term ones that are possibly not even detected, but i didn't articulate that properly and yeah if you include them then "most" isn't correct. not a lot of meaningful decisions to be made for very early-term miscarriages though right? to my knowledge the ability to control for these is minimal at best. i admit i haven't looked into it though, so maybe that's mistaken.
 
We are not sure about that. The current estimate of conception to term survival is in the 40 - 60% range, but it used to be ~25%. Once the woman gets to her thirties it goes down loads.
So, there are about 140 million births world wide annually. If that number is about about 50% of conceptions, then either genetics or God is killing 140 million persons/fetuses/blobs of living cells annually. That is a big number.
 
my intention was to exclude the early-term ones that are possibly not even detected, but i didn't articulate that properly and yeah if you include them then "most" isn't correct. not a lot of meaningful decisions to be made for very early-term miscarriages though right? to my knowledge the ability to control for these is minimal at best. i admit i haven't looked into it though, so maybe that's mistaken.
One can have a massive effect on this number: have one children earlier. This number goes up loads as one gets older, such that, for example if someone had 7 children in their thirties I could confidently claim that person would have had more abortions than most women.
 
One can have a massive effect on this number: have one children earlier. This number goes up loads as one gets older, such that, for example if someone had 7 children in their thirties I could confidently claim that person would have had more abortions than most women.

oh, true. though there are both functional and ethical limits to that which suggest to me that unless we have a good reason to worry about the early-term miscarriages that otherwise go undetected, we probably shouldn't bother.

though i think women who have children earlier in life are happier, on average? that still needs to be their choice though, because some people (men and women) are happier without children ever. i also suspect this happiness metric is more along the lines of "have a stable marriage in your early-mid 20s" than "be a single parent at 25" or something.
 
oh, true. though there are both functional and ethical limits to that which suggest to me that unless we have a good reason to worry about the early-term miscarriages that otherwise go undetected, we probably shouldn't bother.
I would totally say we shouldn't concern ourselves with this, but my understanding is that there are some who think these are human lives comparable to that of the mother. One might expect them to care.
 
So, there are about 140 million births world wide annually. If that number is about about 50% of conceptions, then either genetics or God is killing 140 million persons/fetuses/blobs of living cells annually. That is a big number.

Gonna kill all the ones that pull through, too. And those might create further spawn to kill too. Emulation is the sincerest form of flattery.
 
https://www.euronews.com/2022/06/23...tion-law-threatens-us-womans-life-say-doctors
Malta abortion refusal threatens woman's life, say doctors

The life of a US woman is in grave danger after Maltese doctors refused to grant her a potentially life-saving abortion after a medical emergency, her partner Jay Weeldreyer told Euronews.

Andrea Prudente, who was on holiday in Malta with Weeldreyer for a "babymoon" holiday, suffered a premature breaking of her waters on Thursday.

Despite her 16-week-old foetus no longer being viable and the acute risks to her life, doctors told Prudente, 38, from the Seattle area, she could not have an abortion as it is illegal in Malta, according to Weeldreyer.

He said staff at Mater Dei hospital in Msida informed them that she must instead wait until her foetus's heartbeat stops or there is an imminent risk to her life before it can be removed.

Abortion is illegal in all cases in Malta.

What to say besides "stupid, stupid, stupid"?
 
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