About how to live best

[Remorseless1]

@Lohrenswald, like others suggested, maybe a hobby might help a little? Since you are into physics, maybe have a look at interesting physics videos on youtube, or theories mentioned (not things you have to use for your own work, but possibly interesting).
Although our civilization hasn't yet evolved to the point of solving depression or so many other common and life-damaging issues, tech is already interesting and you might find areas of interest there too - eg with the various computer-based creators of art or text, available online.

While I admire your optimism, I doubt humans will ever be free from mental health issues. All non-physical mental health issues stem from interactions with other humans, starting with parents, siblings, and family, then broadens out to school mates and instructors. Everyone carries baggage, often bequeathed them by earlier generations.

Now treatment, that will improve. But I think one of the crucial changes humanity has is to stop demeaning people who have mental health issues.

 

[Narz]

But I think one of the crucial changes humanity has is to stop demeaning people who have mental health issues.

A start could to stop labeling everything as a disorder which implies people are malfunctioning as opposed to actually functioning pretty damn well in a disturbed society.

 

[Gorbles]

The problem we have with that is that people have to function in said society, which means recognising how people deal with that. Disorders arise because of these environmental factors (and others), and the fact that the environment is a negative influence doesn't stop disorders from becoming real. My wife has anxiety (professionally diagonised, by two separate professionals), and she has anxiety for a wide range of valid reasons, but the fact that our society doesn't help and at times contributes to those reasons, doesn't mean she doesn't have it. She still has it. There really isn't a way to characterise what it is without that label sounding negative, because it afflicts her.

Can't get treatment without being diagnosed. Any form of treatment, I'm not just talking medicine here. Unless you want to say "anyone can and should be able to ask for anything and get it", there ultimately has to be some form of gateway (even if it's a very permissive / porous one).

It's rough. I have a lot of empathy for folks who suffer (including myself, and people online like Lohr as well). There isn't a magical fix, heck, there often isn't a short-term fix. But using labels to describe what we are, including what we're suffering from at times, is a valid method of categorising the different ways in which we can either help ourselves, or get help from others with.

 

[Narz]

Can't get treatment without being diagnosed. Any form of treatment, I'm not just talking medicine here. Unless you want to say "anyone can and should be able to ask for anything and get it", there ultimately has to be some form of gateway (even if it's a very permissive / porous one).

Yes anyone should be able to get mental health support. Not just if a doctor tells you you're sufficiently messed up

But using labels to describe what we are, including what we're suffering from at times, is a valid method of categorising the different ways in which we can either help ourselves, or get help from others with

To each their own. I find it insulting to be told I'm deficient and disordered because I don't thrive in a particular environment.

 

[Farm Boy]

It's a hierarchy. You owe an accredited.

 

[GoodEnoughForMe]

I gotta be honest; you (I mean you in the generic sense) get a lot of advice when you post stuff like this and most of it is bs. Well meaning, but bs.

I’ve spent 19 years now battling depression and likely will my entire life. I’ve attempted twice, abused enough alcohol and xanax to kill multiple elephants, and spent a large chunk of my teens and 20s in a completely agoraphobic isolation that I resent and regret to this day.

It sucks but you have to find what works yourself. That’s what it takes. I tried the whole exercise thing and in my 20s it made my mental health worse. I would go for a run for 45 minutes, come back, and spiral into a “what’s the point of any of this it’s all bs and I’m useless/ugly/etc.” When I told a discord friend exercising made me feel worse mentally he was incredulous and basically told me I was wrong somehow lmao. Later on he turned out to be racist so yeah. Anyways.

Nowadays running doesn’t do that to me. I can go run or swim and feel fine.

I’d like to say you work on things or find the right therapist or whatever and while all that helps, it really comes down to discomfort. Inertia is hell. I finally got going a bit when in 2016 I went to Southeast Asia with an online friend after a particularly hopeless day at a job I hated made me go “f it” (it should be said I had been privileged enough yo have traveled quite a bit before this trip), came back, and decided to try dating after I went on the first two dates of my life in Vietnam. That meant I had to clean my room. Four weeks and 80-100 bags of trash later, and scrubbing way too many alcohol and tobacco stains out of the carpet, and I felt good about my living space again.

But yeah it really just comes to discomfort pushing you forward. It’s the same struggle I have now about moving out of town or taking a risk creatively. Eventually the discomfort my sadness about not really having traveled since covid overruled my discomfort of asking my wife to go with me or spending money on doing so, and we went and it was great. In that sense things can change, but that doesn’t mean you’ll instantly be healed or live your dream or whatever. It still unfortunately takes work. You just gotta find either a way or a person to push.

 

[Remorseless1]

A start could to stop labeling everything as a disorder which implies people are malfunctioning as opposed to actually functioning pretty damn well in a disturbed society.

Depression is real. Sociopathy is real. Phobias are real. Body dysmorphia is real. Aspergers is real. There numerous other mental health issues.

Yes, people can develop coping methods that allow them to function in broader society. So can addicts -- ever heard of a functioning alcoholic?

But your solution to a depressive is "shake it off, brah"?????

 

[Birdjaguar]

I gotta be honest; you (I mean you in the generic sense) get a lot of advice when you post stuff like this and most of it is bs. Well meaning, but bs.

I’ve spent 19 years now battling depression and likely will my entire life. I’ve attempted twice, abused enough alcohol and xanax to kill multiple elephants, and spent a large chunk of my teens and 20s in a completely agoraphobic isolation that I resent and regret to this day.

It sucks but you have to find what works yourself. That’s what it takes. I tried the whole exercise thing and in my 20s it made my mental health worse. I would go for a run for 45 minutes, come back, and spiral into a “what’s the point of any of this it’s all bs and I’m useless/ugly/etc.” When I told a discord friend exercising made me feel worse mentally he was incredulous and basically told me I was wrong somehow lmao. Later on he turned out to be racist so yeah. Anyways.

Nowadays running doesn’t do that to me. I can go run or swim and feel fine.

I’d like to say you work on things or find the right therapist or whatever and while all that helps, it really comes down to discomfort. Inertia is hell. I finally got going a bit when in 2016 I went to Southeast Asia with an online friend after a particularly hopeless day at a job I hated made me go “f it” (it should be said I had been privileged enough yo have traveled quite a bit before this trip), came back, and decided to try dating after I went on the first two dates of my life in Vietnam. That meant I had to clean my room. Four weeks and 80-100 bags of trash later, and scrubbing way too many alcohol and tobacco stains out of the carpet, and I felt good about my living space again.

But yeah it really just comes to discomfort pushing you forward. It’s the same struggle I have now about moving out of town or taking a risk creatively. Eventually the discomfort my sadness about not really having traveled since covid overruled my discomfort of asking my wife to go with me or spending money on doing so, and we went and it was great. In that sense things can change, but that doesn’t mean you’ll instantly be healed or live your dream or whatever. It still unfortunately takes work. You just gotta find either a way or a person to push.

Look on the previous page

 

[GoodEnoughForMe]

I think that has promise but I also remain cynical about our ability to treat it effectively. Not only would an inflammation model only account for a subset of people with depression, but we’ve been burned by “we have found the truth of depression” on multiple occasions in this century alone. I’d love to be wrong though and inflammatory problems also likely explain aspects of long covid, so it’s def an area we need more focus on.

One of my favorite factoids is that conservative ideology shows some protectiveness against depression, but mostly in white and middle and upper class people. It shows no protectiveness for black women unsurprisingly. This is a multifaceted illness that works on a personal and *joker voice* societal level.

 

[Angst]

there is some sense to what narz is saying. many people with disorders could supposedly function perfectly well but can't in the way we have arranged for society to function.

that said, yes, disorders are real. they are real limits to individual adaption to stress factors that healthy people don't deal with. healthy people simply get better by in the roster of challenges that society faces you with. disorders means you have challenges dealing with things healthy people can more easily adapt to. schizophrenia is a few different things, but the most important part as to function is a much higher susceptibility to stress. everyone can hallucinate with enough stress. schizos do it faster.

if i were outside modern denmark - eg back in the stone age - i would either not be alive due to my schizophrenia, or i would be some weird ass shaman bard. neither is a position i would be in because i am healthy; my health is not modern society's fault in itself. yes, the environment counts, but it's definitely not the whole story.

 

[Narz]

Depression is real. Sociopathy is real. Phobias are real. Body dysmorphia is real. Aspergers is real. There numerous other mental health issues.

Never denied issues. I denied that all issues labeled disorders are actually 'diseases'. Take body dysmorphria. Obviously not a disease in any clinical sense but a product of a body obsessed society, also not something you either 100% have or 100% don't but a spectrum.

But your solution to a depressive is "shake it off, brah"?????

No.

there is some sense to what narz is saying. many people with disorders could supposedly function perfectly well but can't in the way we have arranged for society to function.

that said, yes, disorders are real. they are real limits to individual adaption to stress factors that healthy people don't deal with.

I deny the distinction of inherently healthy vs unhealthy people. We all have issues & dysfunctional habits but that doesn't make us dysfunctional human beings. You can look @ a seemingly 'healthy' person & envy them but you don't know what they go thru.

healthy people simply get better by in the roster of challenges that society faces you with. disorders means you have challenges dealing with things healthy people can more easily adapt to. schizophrenia is a few different things, but the most important part as to function is a much higher susceptibility to stress. everyone can hallucinate with enough stress. schizos do it faster.

I can't speak on schizophrenia but most disorders are spectrums not black & white

if i were outside modern denmark - eg back in the stone age - i would either not be alive due to my schizophrenia, or i would be some weird ass shaman bard. neither is a position i would be in because i am healthy; my health is not modern society's fault in itself. yes, the environment counts, but it's definitely not the whole story.

Not saying it's all 'modern society's' fault. Every society has certain human types that are deemed unacceptable. Nor am I saying current diagnostics are necessarily a bad thing, just a primitive thing and not scientific, useful for some, useless for many.

 

[Angst]

schizophrenia is a spectrum too but it's not in any way comparable to being mentally healthy. you can decide not to make the distinction between healthy and unhealthy all you want. like, sure. let's call having schizophrenia being healthy. doesn't remove the fact it's no joke and not comparable to having a healthy brain. appealing to "you don't know what healthy people go through" is incessantly distasteful.

edit alright i'm gonna expand. personally, i was systematically feeling followed by a nightmare being for years. due to needing to feel safe during this constant state, i needed to move systematically in a particular way through any indoor hallway. nevermind being able to traverse woods or look into mirrors at all. and i grew up near a bunch of forests. couldn't face or turn my back to windows or mirrors. this goes way past the negative symptoms and the troubles i deal with today (it's just one of the things i've been dealing with), but i feel i need to illustrate this particular symptom in order to convey how "You can look @ a seemingly 'healthy' person & envy them but you don't know what they go thru." is absolutely disconnected to what it's like living with this

like, the things healthy people go through - we have to go through that too, on top of this stuff.

editedit: oh and btw - my symptoms are on the milder side.

 

[Lexicus]

I deny the distinction of inherently healthy vs unhealthy people. We all have issues & dysfunctional habits but that doesn't make us dysfunctional human beings. You can look @ a seemingly 'healthy' person & envy them but you don't know what they go thru.

You clearly have never dealt with a seriously mentally ill person.

 

[bernie14]

schizophrenia is a spectrum too but it's not in any way comparable to being mentally healthy. you can decide not to make the distinction between healthy and unhealthy all you want. like, sure. let's call having schizophrenia being healthy. doesn't remove the fact it's no joke and not comparable to having a healthy brain. appealing to "you don't know what healthy people go through" is incessantly distasteful.

edit alright i'm gonna expand. personally, i was systematically feeling followed by a nightmare being for years. due to needing to feel safe during this constant state, i needed to move systematically in a particular way through any indoor hallway. nevermind being able to traverse woods or look into mirrors at all. and i grew up near a bunch of forests. couldn't face or turn my back to windows or mirrors. this goes way past the negative symptoms and the troubles i deal with today (it's just one of the things i've been dealing with), but i feel i need to illustrate this particular symptom in order to convey how "You can look @ a seemingly 'healthy' person & envy them but you don't know what they go thru." is absolutely disconnected to what it's like living with this

like, the things healthy people go through - we have to go through that too, on top of this stuff.

editedit: oh and btw - my symptoms are on the milder side.

Diathesis stress model seems pretty banal

Diathesis–stress model - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Angst]

Diathesis stress model seems pretty banal

Diathesis–stress model - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

not sure of whether you mean banal deragoratorily; it's indeed banal, but in the sense that it's a simple and a reasonably useful model for the stress sensitivity of mentally ill people. again, everyone can hallucinate with enough stress. people with schizophrenia (who hallucinate) do it more often due to higher vulnerability to stress factors. sometimes barely anything does it.
i think you included it for ease, and if so thanks <3

 

[bernie14]

not sure of whether you mean banal deragoratorily; it's indeed banal, but in the sense that it's a simple and a reasonably useful model for the stress sensitivity of mentally ill people. again, everyone can hallucinate with enough stress. people with schizophrenia (who hallucinate) do it more often due to higher vulnerability to stress factors. sometimes barely anything does it.
i think you included it for ease, and if so thanks <3

Dysregulation of Midbrain Dopamine System and the Pathophysiology of Schizophrenia

Dysregulation of the dopamine system is central to many models of the pathophysiology of psychosis in schizophrenia. However, emerging evidence suggests that this dysregulation is driven by the disruption of upstream circuits that provide afferent control of midbrain dopamine neurons...

www.frontiersin.org

This review will discuss the dopamine system and the circuits that regulate it, focusing on the hippocampus, medial prefrontal cortex, thalamic nuclei, and medial septum, and the impact of stress.

EDIT. btw, psychosis is symptom, not a disorder

 

[schlaufuchs]

The clinical definition of a disorder (at least as I understand it) is that it is something that disrupts your ability to function as *you* (the person with the disorder) wants to.

There is certainly something to be said for the way capitalist society imposes conditions on living that exacerbate the disorder as-defined or being certain types of inhibited functioning into sharper focus.

But, I mean at the end of the day my brain is less able to produce, keep, and effectively utilize the compounds that drive focus, which makes it harder for me to start, and to maintain focus, even on things I really really want to do. Yeah the capitalist insistence on punctuality, and the tying of self-worth to continuous value-producing activity certainly don’t help, and create or exacerbate additional downstream disorders. But even in a communist utopia, that fundamental deficiency would still be there, and it would still be inhibiting my ability to function internally and interpersonally.

 

[bernie14]

The clinical definition of a disorder (at least as I understand it) is that it is something that disrupts your ability to function as *you* (the person with the disorder) wants to.

There is certainly something to be said for the way capitalist society imposes conditions on living that exacerbate the disorder as-defined or being certain types of inhibited functioning into sharper focus.

But, I mean at the end of the day my brain is less able to produce, keep, and effectively utilize the compounds that drive focus, which makes it harder for me to start, and to maintain focus, even on things I really really want to do. Yeah the capitalist insistence on punctuality, and the tying of self-worth to continuous value-producing activity certainly don’t help, and create or exacerbate additional downstream disorders. But even in a communist utopia, that fundamental deficiency would still be there, and it would still be inhibiting my ability to function internally and interpersonally.

I'm not a fan of politicizing psychology

 

[Remorseless1]

I will agree with Hard on one point: there is no person who is completely mentally healthy. Sometimes they're called eccentricities or odd behavior, but all of us are at least a bit off.

 

[schlaufuchs]

I'm not a fan of politicizing psychology

Don’t know what to tell you dude. Psychology simply *is* political. Ignoring that simple fact doesn’t render it untrue. Quite the contrary, historically ignoring it has made life significantly more difficult to navigate for the objects of psychological investigation, as any trans, disabled, or neurodivergent person could tell you.