Adam Smith Capitalism: The Best Form of Capitalism?

[Sword_Of_Geddon]

Capitalism isn't good at all because it rests on the idea of exploitation. Socialism all the way.

Capitalism is only good when businesses and others engaged in the free market follow a code of ethics(aka have morals), all to often today businesses engage in the pursuit of profit no matter who gets hurt in the process(google employee management for an example of how many businesses treat and view their employees.)

I wouldn't call it discredited, just not part of mainstream post neoclassical (1880s+) economics. There are a million different ways we can chose to measure and quantify our human actions, and price theory/marginal utility theory of value is just one of them.

True enough. There is a fundamental difference between how the economies of the pre-industrial world were talked about and analyzed, when compared to today. The world economy and instant transactions are something that has vastly changed things economy wise.

 

[amadeus]

That's quite true.

Well, I'd recommend Brendan Cooney's YouTube channel for an explanation of Marxian economics, and although I can't think of a formal defence of Marxian economics off the top of my head, he does make some effort in the videos to explain how the LTV is a useful theoretical framework. And for what it's work, here's the link I posed earlier about empirical evidence for the LTV.

If you are not a Marxist, is there a school of economics to which you subscribe?

I watched a couple of the Cooney videos and have come to the conclusion that my initial impression of Marxian economics was right: it's meaningless gobbledygook that can't be taken seriously.

 

[Traitorfish]

If you are not a Marxist, is there a school of economics to which you subscribe?

I'm not not a Marxist (post-Marxist? neo-Marxist? para-Marxist?), but, in all honesty, I don't give economics as much thought as I might have done. Like Marx, I see the functioning of economics as providing a critique of duration, not of informing public policy, so I honestly tend to be more interested in the philosophical, historical and political aspects of Marxist thought. Marxian economics makes more sense to me that others I've encountered, but that could be selection bias, so I wouldn't consider myself a partisan for it.

I watched a couple of the Cooney videos and have come to the conclusion that my initial impression of Marxian economics was right: it's meaningless gobbledygook that can't be taken seriously.

Honestly, when my first impression is that "Hah, I was right all along!", I like to take a step back and consider why that might be my first impression. So there's that.

 

[amadeus]

Honestly, when my first impression is that "Hah, I was right all along!", I like to take a step back and consider why that might be my first impression. So there's that.

I'm fortunate in that I'm not the one that had to refute it: Menger and Bohm-Bawerk refuted it over 100 years ago. Nor is it picking on Marx, as Smith and Ricardo were also wrong.

 

[Traitorfish]

I'm fortunate in that I'm not the one that had to refute it: Menger and Bohm-Bawerk refuted it over 100 years ago.

Well, I'm sure that they think they did, but there's a Creation Museum in Kentucky, so... Perception is not reality, sort of thing.

 

[sophie]

what is called the Crony Capitalism/Corporatism often talked about in the news today

Adam Smith warned of Corporatism(though he did not use this term) as well as the form of economics championed by Ayn Rand in her books.

This term does not mean what you think it means.

 

[Tahuti]

This term does not mean what you think it means.

What do you think it means?

I've always thought Corporatism meant government meddling to benefit a select, priveliged part of the private sector.

 

[Traitorfish]

"Corporatism" means the integration of capital, labour and state (and sometimes other entities, e.g. NGOs, religious organisations) into a single economic and political decision-making process. It includes, at a very basic level, things like systems of state arbitration between trade unions and businesses. Legitimising state meddling is only one of the functions it can provide; the association is more because of, on the one hand, an over-association of the term with interwar authoritarianism on the one hand, and because of a certain mistrust of state involvement on the other. (Although there are plenty of people out there who'll tell you that corporatism is a way for Greedy Unions to steal from the Noble Producers, or some such. So it can work both ways.)

 

[Tahuti]

Frankly, I've heard multiple definitions of Corporatism. The Netherlands for example often refers to itself as a Corporatist state in the way you described it, but most of the time, I've seen Corporatism used as a prejorative to imply corruption and elitism.

Both definitions aren't really mutually exclusive, though: Integration of many sectors of society into one economic decision making system can corrupt into a system that benefits the elite at the expense of the many, especially if certain parts of society already have more leverage over others to begin with.

 

[ParkCungHee]

the association is more because of

...The words sounding similar.

 

[sophie]

Frankly, I've heard multiple definitions of Corporatism. The Netherlands for example often refers to itself as a Corporatist state in the way you described it, but most of the time, I've seen Corporatism used as a prejorative to imply corruption and elitism.

Both definitions aren't really mutually exclusive, though: Integration of many sectors of society into one economic decision making system can corrupt into a system that benefits the elite at the expense of the many, especially if certain parts of society already have more leverage over others to begin with.

The term you have in mind is a misnomer that has come into vogue in american English, especially in the last couple years. The proper "Political Science" definition of "Corporatism" is the one Traitorfish describes above. The best example of a Corporatist state or a state which implements Corporatist elements in its government that I can think of off the top of my head would be Germany today.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

The best example of a Corporatist state or a state which implements Corporatist elements in its government that I can think of off the top of my head would be Germany today.

Just that we refer to it as "Social market economy".

 

[Tahuti]

Just that we refer to it as "Social market economy".

I think that may have something to do with Corporatism being used a prejorative, since supporters of "Corporatism" will use the term social market economy instead.

The proper "Political Science" definition of "Corporatism" is the one Traitorfish describes above.

It may a little bit off-topic, but there is simply no such thing as a "proper" definition. The meaning of a words depends on how they are used, which is why debates always tend to be inconclusive, as both sides of the debate essentially use language in such way as to benefit their point of view. Libertarians and Anarchists will say how taxes are theft, while those opposing them will say how taxes are part of the law.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

I think that may have something to do with Corporatism being used a prejorative, since supporters of "Corporatism" will use the term social market economy instead.

Ah, might this be another battle term of the infamous Randian front or some sort? Because there is no direct equivalence in the German language I ever encountered.

 

[Leoreth]

I've always considered corporatism to be one aspect of a social market economy, not all of it.

 

[Algeroth]

Just that we refer to it as "Social market economy".

Corporatism is only an optional part of Social Market Economy, Nordic countries have SME, but they aren't neocorporatist. France is also SME, but France is unable to form any working communication and negotiation between state, labour and business or stop hoarding power in one centre.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

That sounds sensible

 

[Aleenik]

The best form of Capitalism is no Capitalism.

 

[amadeus]

The collectivists have solved the calculation problem?

 

[Akkon888]

An omnipotent, benevolent government, that can enforce universal slave labor, is the best form of government/economy.

The best capitalistic economy, is the one with the most optimal income tax rate, and the one with the most regulations. Assuming that all loopholes are closed and all violators severely punished, the most optimal these two aspects are, the better the economy. Higher tax does not just support the government and help the poor, but it optimizes the corporation through natural selection; the corporation is also fenced by severe regulations to prevent it from becoming too powerful.

In essence, it is the social market economy.