Affirmative Action

[Cutlass]

Racist policies alive and well in the US today:

Our penal system
AuthorDaron Acemoglu and James Robinson

As we discussed in this blog post, the very high incarceration rates for African-Americans is a uniquely American failure.

There are fundamental problems with the US penal system in general, which locks up and puts under parole hundreds of thousands of young men (and women), mostly for non-violent offenses. But the comparison of the incarceration rates of whites and African-Americans, which is shown again in the next figure, is particularly jarring. Almost 5 out of every 100 male African-Americans are in jail, a rate more than five times that of white Americans.

Rest of story HERE

 

[innonimatu]

Racist policies alive and well in the US today:

Rest of story HERE

The penal system is just reserving a higher percentage of vacancies for African-Americans. They're on board with affirmative action!

 

[Terxpahseyton]

innonimatu, you clearly failed to understand the logic of AA. Because what we need to do is allow whites to be imprisoned for lesser crimes than other races.

How on earth can the article not state actual crime rates for blacks in comparison to other races when pulling such a graph? Is it possibly inconvenient for the narrative of the article (haven't actually read it)?

 

[Cutlass]

innonimatu, you clearly failed to understand the logic of AA. Because what we need to do is allow whites to be imprisoned for lesser crimes than other races.

How on earth can the article not state actual crime rates for blacks in comparison to other races when pulling such a graph? Is it possibly inconvenient for the narrative of the article (haven't actually read it)?

Way to miss the point, dude.

For any given crime, a black person will get a far harsher prison sentence than a white person who did exactly the same thing. And that is only one aspect of the problem. There are consequences for policies like this. And they have long term and generational consequences as well.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

The graph does not show severity, but simply how many are imprisoned. I realize that severity has an impact on that, but my point remains perfectly valid, especially as I did not even try to argue the gist of the article.

Dude

 

[Mise]

Reminds me of another point: Employers are far more willing to hire white ex-convicts than black ex-convicts, even when convicted for similar crimes.

 

[Leoreth]

Is there affirmative action in the American penal system?

 

[Cutlass]

Is there affirmative action in the American penal system?

It's not affirmative action. It's a 150 year effort to lock up blacks for the purpose of denying them rights, opportunities, and property.

 

[Leoreth]

I know what you meant. That's why I ask if there's affirmative action in the US penal system to make up for that.

 

[Cutlass]

I don't understand what you mean by that.

 

[Leoreth]

I mean, do black convicts get lighter punishments to make up for inherent biases of the system? Less jail time? Should they, and if not, why not?

 

[Cutlass]

I mean, do black convicts get lighter punishments to make up for inherent biases of the system? Less jail time? Should they, and if not, why not?

Black convicts get heavier punishment for any given offense. That is the bias in the system. And that heavier punishment has effects in all other aspects of the socioeconomic performance of the black population.

What should happen is that the justice system should be colorblind. Rates of false convictions of blacks is very high. Charges filed for the same offense are higher for blacks. Blacks are routinely arrested and imprisoned for things that whites might only get a verbal warning or a minor fine for, or no action by the police at all. For the same crime, blacks usually get longer prison sentences. Every aspect of the criminal justice system treats black and white people differently.

 

[Mise]

Ugh... If you're asking that question, you are completely missing the purpose and intent of these policies. Putting black people above the law is not the same as putting them in university or in employment. It may look that way if you view Affirmative Action as an unfair advantage to black people, or even if you see it as a crass rectification of past wrongs imposed on black people. But if you look at it as what it is, as a means of elevating blacks to positions that we both want them to be in, and that they are qualified to be in, then it makes no sense. We want blacks to attend university; we recognise the racial discrimination that blacks as a group must overcome when applying for university; so we level out the playing field, so that more blacks can enrol in higher education that they are qualified for. We don't want blacks to commit crimes, so there is simply no reason for Affirmative Action to be applied here. If a black person knows that he will get better treatment by the university admissions system, he is more likely to apply to university; that's the purpose and intent of AA. But if a black person knows that he will get better treatment by the criminal justice system, he is more likely to commit crimes instead.

Again, if you understand the purpose and intent of AA, then there is simply no analogy between university admissions and law enforcement.

 

[luiz]

If the admission process to universities is entirely objective and guaranteed to be free of any kind of discrimination, than what rationale can be used to justify racial AA?

 

[Mise]

If you're naive enough to believe that an "entirely objective" admissions process is even possible, or that it is "guaranteed to be free of any kind of discrimination" then... whatevs. When you're talking about marginal cases, i.e. in cases where AA is applicable, there's no such thing as "entirely objective". Candidate A is never objectively better than candidate B.

 

[Cutlass]

If the admission process to universities is entirely objective and guaranteed to be free of any kind of discrimination, than what rationale can be used to justify racial AA?

University admission does not exist in a vacuum.

 

[Patroklos]

Way to miss the point, dude.

For any given crime, a black person will get a far harsher prison sentence than a white person who did exactly the same thing. And that is only one aspect of the problem. There are consequences for policies like this. And they have long term and generational consequences as well.

Perhaps this is the case (probably not), but nothing you posted in this thread demonstrates this.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

So once I go into lengths great enough so people do not have a chance to attack my argument against AA by not understanding it, it gets the tl;dr treatment.... Well as long as I post on these boards and wherever racial AA sparks disagreement, I shall link to this post

 

[Mise]

I read it SiLL I just don't have anything to say that I haven't already said. My response is simply that, like the minimum wage, I can accept a little bit of economic inefficiency and a few cries of "gosh it's just so hard to be a Straight White Man these days", for the benefit of aiding 60% or so of the population. You seem to simply disagree that the trade-off is worthwhile.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

That makes me glad to hear
But I am not only disagreeing that it was worthwhile. As my post explains, I think there is no valid rational that it was worthwhile and which is not appalling far to seek as soon as one bothers to dig into the depths of what AA in practice can be projected to really mean. That all that is left in the end is to insist on advantaging entire races no matter what, based on the intuitive feeling that this must be good. Simply disregarding all that is wrong about this approach. Which is not just covered with white boys whining (while them being discriminated is one part of my argument, though a secondary one) and economic inefficiencies (which I did not even care to mention), but concerns the very purpose of AA, too.
So basically, that racial AA ultimately is most of all supported for sentimental reasons, not for sound objective criteria.