ALC Game 12: Japan/Tokugawa

[cabert]

samurais need to go conquering
we don't want to wait for them to be obsolete, do we?

 

[Killroyan]

I'd shy away from that approach. Both are currently weak enough (Freddy particularly so), so life will be easier in the long run if we don't encourage them to swap to war civics and start training better troops.

If they start to train better units they still throw them at each other. Then you come after them to mop up. The civ you want to attack will be weakened by the other making things easier. But then again I don't know how well protected the cities are and what personalities JC and Frederick have (builder, warmonger, etc....).

 

[carl corey]

I guess the best you can do here is start a war and prepare for the second one while fighting the first. You're going to dominate the field anyway, so there's not much use in building infrastructure in the meantime. That would just delay the second war. And no trades to get the AIs to fight against each other, as has been said that only makes them build more units.

Edit: this was written before seeing Killroyan's post.

 

[carl corey]

Killroyan, what I'm afraid of is that the AIs won't really go to war, just throw some troops here and there, and they'll build more units than they waste. If you want the job done, you'd better do it yourself, eh?

 

[Sisiutil]

If the AI was better at war, I'd try to make it a war ally more often. As it stands, Carl is right: war just makes them build more units, but they usually don't use them against one another effectively. In fact, what they're very likely to do is pillage one another's tile improvements that I'll need or want later on. Idiots.

(Please indulge this free association rant: does it not drive you crazy when you capture a city, and a friendly civ's cultural borders extend over part of its fat cross, and the workers of the friendly civ come along and start farming over the towns!?! Makes me feel a lot less guilty about pillaging improvements around a city I've just razed. )

I played part of the next round last night. I decided to finish off my chosen opponent before ending the round, and it is taking a while. Good thing I changed to Epic speed. The Samurai are indeed seeing a lot of use, though a little less so once Trebuchets appeared on the scene. I love those things.

I hope to finish the round and post the update tonight.

 

[PMabey]

(Please indulge this free association rant: does it not drive you crazy when you capture a city, and a friendly civ's cultural borders extend over part of its fat cross, and the workers of the friendly civ come along and start farming over the towns!?! Makes me feel a lot less guilty about pillaging improvements around a city I've just razed. )

Yes, this is so annoying. Especially when you know you'll get those tiles eventually anyway. I dont know why the workers do it as well, because the only possible purpose it serves is creating chain irrigation and i doubt very much if this is indeed the case very often. I guess they have improved every tile in each city's BFC and roaded evry tile so have nothing else to do.

 

[Sisiutil]

Yes, this is so annoying. Especially when you know you'll get those tiles eventually anyway. I dont know why the workers do it as well, because the only possible purpose it serves is creating chain irrigation and i doubt very much if this is indeed the case very often. I guess they have improved every tile in each city's BFC and roaded evry tile so have nothing else to do.

I'm becoming more and more convinced that the AI is programmed to do this out of spite. Or, at least, as a tactic to decrease the benefits of the city you've captured--which does kinda make sense. Like I said, I do something similar when I pillage improvements around a razed city that I know I won't be settling near for some time, if ever.

 

[uncarved block]

Workers farming over Towns has always made sense to me, because of the way score is calculated (the population and territory part); because the AI can't actually plan ahead, maximizing the score at any given moment is the fairest way to go, in the long run. A civ that didn't work at doing so would either be a pushover, or an unfair tech monster. It's a bad compromise, but at least it makes some sense. If there's one thing I would like to see change in an eventual patch/expansion, it would be a more subtle treatment of the power graph. As it is, a civ with a few huge cities with a couple defenders will appear strong contrasted with one with smaller cities but a host of offensive units. This wouldn't be such a big deal if it only effected the human player's decisions, but it doesn't, leading to the kind of 'phony wars' we all love so much. (Two Cavalry units and a Catapult do not an invasion make.) I'm no programmer, but given the way Power is counted, having an 'active vs potential' split doesn't seem like it would be that hard. (Easy for me to say, eh?) It would even provide a better game for the human player in the long run, as the number of AIs making dumb war decisions and getting Vassalized as a result would go down. A bit OT, but Sisiutil seems to have been in an OT mood most of this ALC.

Whether to jump the ALCs up a notch or not . . in the long run, it's only your choice, Sisiutil, but it's worth pointing out that this was a very good map for the tactics chosen from the start. Would things be as easy if you'd gotten Brennus' starting position? OTOH, we've seen you take a fairly isolated start and win rather easily. My (rather selfish) vote would be to start changing the maps, perhaps to some of the land heavy ones like Lakes or Oasis. IMHO having a lot of water always favors the human player because it limits Barb activity so much. I remember that consistency in setting was part of the initial premise of the ALCs, but the repetition does seem to be getting to you. Just thinking out loud-- feel free to ignore this off topic prattling.

 

[Sisiutil]

A bit OT, but Sisiutil seems to have been in an OT mood most of this ALC.

No, really?

Whether to jump the ALCs up a notch or not . . in the long run, it's only your choice, Sisiutil, but it's worth pointing out that this was a very good map for the tactics chosen from the start. Would things be as easy if you'd gotten Brennus' starting position? OTOH, we've seen you take a fairly isolated start and win rather easily. My (rather selfish) vote would be to start changing the maps, perhaps to some of the land heavy ones like Lakes or Oasis. IMHO having a lot of water always favors the human player because it limits Barb activity so much. I remember that consistency in setting was part of the initial premise of the ALCs, but the repetition does seem to be getting to you. Just thinking out loud-- feel free to ignore this off topic prattling.

Interesting--I myself feel that large land masses favour the human player, since it makes war easier. Isolated starts, I always feel, but me at a big disadvantage. They're also kind of boring.

I'm not bored of the ALCs, though; I'm still having fun, and slightly off-topic discussions that are still about the game are part of that. I'd like to play a few more ALC games with the fractal maps and see what else we get. While I got a big continent again this time out, I find this one with its southwestern desert that the AI jumped on more interesting than most others I've had.

By the way, Brennus' start, it turns out, is not that much different from the one I had in the Inca game. His disadvantage is that he's naturally inclined to be an isolationist because of religious factors.

 

[GeneralGab]

I'm not bored of the ALCs, though; I'm still having fun, and slightly off-topic discussions that are still about the game are part of that. I'd like to play a few more ALC games with the fractal maps and see what else we get. While I got a big continent again this time out, I find this one with its southwestern desert that the AI jumped on more interesting than most others I've had.

Yeah, I think a bit more play on fractal maps is needed before you go up a level. I started playing on fractal maps when you announced this ALC, and 2 out 5 times I've been isolated on my own island. I've also gotten a very winding map with lots of coast, perfect for me since I was playing as Hannibal.

Fractal maps can throw a wrench into your plans, so I'd prefer to see you try them out more before moving up.

BTW, thanks for the treads; I've been reading them since ALC 6, and enjoy it very much.

 

[forgedplayer]

Sisiutil, I have to first off say how much I have enjoyed reading up on all of the ALC games you have posted. I Feel I have learned quite a bit by quietly watching and reading all the great postings. I don't get to play anywhere near as much as many of you do, plus I only have the vanilla, haven't had the time to pick up warlords yet. I have to learn to whip better, and not chase every tech and builing and wonder. Kind of liek real life, we can't be all things to all people can we? One thing I'm frustrated by is when I wish to add something to a cities building cue, it alwasy jumps in front of the production line rather than being the next in line. Likely a totally ignorant question here, but can you switch up the build order once the production has started without loosing production already expended?

 

[Sisiutil]

Sisiutil, I have to first off say how much I have enjoyed reading up on all of the ALC games you have posted. I Feel I have learned quite a bit by quietly watching and reading all the great postings. I don't get to play anywhere near as much as many of you do, plus I only have the vanilla, haven't had the time to pick up warlords yet. I have to learn to whip better, and not chase every tech and builing and wonder. Kind of liek real life, we can't be all things to all people can we? One thing I'm frustrated by is when I wish to add something to a cities building cue, it alwasy jumps in front of the production line rather than being the next in line. Likely a totally ignorant question here, but can you switch up the build order once the production has started without loosing production already expended?

Just Shift+click on the new item to add it to the end of the queue. Ctrl+click will insert it at the beginning of the queue, ahead of the previous item. And even if you remove an item from the queue, its hammers aren't lost--at least not at first. At normal speed, the hammers for an item previously in production (but no longer) are retained for 10 turns before they start to deteriorate.

Getting back to this game: I'm approaching a point where I think the Samurai are about to become obsolete. What would everyone take as a sign of this? Most players contend, for example, that once Riflemen appear, Cavalry are obsolete (though I still find them useful). I tend to find that once Longbowmen appear, it's a sign that Swordsmen and Axemen have had their day and it's time to get Macemen (not to mention lots of Catapults and Trebuchets). So what should I take as a sign that it's time to upgrade my Samurai?

And upgrade them to what? What's the feeling here--Grenadiers, or Riflemen, or a mix of both? I'm thinking of my CRIII Samurai (I also have one who's at Combat IV and functioning as the stack protector, and another who has Woodsman II and Combat II).

 

[patagonia]

If the AI is defending with riflemen, upgrade your city raiders to grenadiers; if it's defending with a more balanced mix of units, riflemen are probably the way forward. Both will end up as infantry anyway.

On a side note, in terms of obsolescence, cavalry still have their uses when infantry are around. Upgrade them to combat 1 and pinch and they can do quite a bit of damage still. By the time tanks appear though, they're well and truly toast.

 

[KMadCandy]

Workers farming over Towns has always made sense to me, because of the way score is calculated (the population and territory part); because the AI can't actually plan ahead, maximizing the score at any given moment is the fairest way to go, in the long run.

i've seen them do it right after they switched to the emancipation civic. and not a case of going emanc to stop unhappiness ... there was only julius? alex? i forget who, and me left, and i'd just changed out of emanc. he switched in a few turns later, during the farming frenzy. /boggle. maybe it was just out of spite to cause me unhappiness.

 

[Syndrome Zed]

EDIT AGAIN: Ignore anything you might have read in this post. I agree with Cabert - Freddy gave you the finger when he jumped on the Confucian bandwagon. Time to give him the Samurai sword in return...

EDIT: Oops, think I missed a page there....I'll update this shortly again....

 

[Melon Head]

Samurai go obsolete when macemen go obsolete. They're better than macemen, but not that much better; basically, they have a higher chance against muskets, although both will probably loose. When you think the AI is getting near cavalry, riflemen, or grenadiers, I would sue for peace, tech to grens/rifles, and then resume after the swap. If you can manage to be really prescient and sue for peace 1 or 2 turns before the AI gets the required tech, that would be best. If it has grens/cav/rifles, the AI power graph goes up significantly, so it considers itself at an advantage in negotiations, so you won't get as much out of the peace deal. If you can be tricksy and time it before they get the tech, then you can get more stuff out of it in the mean time.

I'd move your CR samurai to grenadiers, and the rest of them to riflemen. Riflemen are better almost all the time, unless you're taking cities. Remember, the grenadier's bonus vs. riflemen only applies if they're on offense, making a rifle a better stack defender.

There are also two related questions I'd start thinking about. First, where are you going to get the cash to upgrade your samurai to grens/rifles. Do you want to upgrade them all? Or even most? If so, that's a hefty sum of cash. Do you have a GM coming down the line? Can you win the economics race? Is it worth it to do so? Second, should you instead build new units instead of upgrading too many of your old ones?

With regards to cash, I actually think the econ beeline could be worth more than the lib beeline, or at least, worth considering (sometimes you can get both). Winning lib gets you a free tech, which I find is often in the vicinity of 3000 beakers (this may change a bit on Epic; I play on normal). If I can get a similar amount of gold from the GM (or even less...ballpark at 2700 gold, simply because I can't think of a better guess), I think that's more valuable, because it is equivalent to more commerce. I rarely have markets/grocers/banks up everywhere at this point, while I usually have libraries, and occasionally universities/academies. 3000 beakers, at +25% from libraries, is 2400 commerce. If I don't have cash enhancing buildings, then 2700 gold, for example, is 2700 commerce.

Of course, this depends on the exact beaker values and the gold you can get for a GM. In addition, a GM needs to be taken to its destination to get you gold, which can take a while, so the rewards of the GM are delayed. Furthermore, if you're using that gold for research, your payoff is again delayed by the number of turns it takes you to go through your gold surplus. So lib is a greater immediate benefit, which is often a better choice (ref. lightbulbing with great people vs. settling them). Since the GM payoff isn't that far away, though, I wouldn't discount it as much as settling a GS.

The other thing about the GM payoff is that if you're using the GM cash for upgrades, you cannot get that value in beakers, which means ou're deciding the land gains from the upgrades will get you a better return in the long run than the research would.

Gong for economics is also trouble because it might pull you off the tech path to grens/rifles, because you need to snag both banking and econ (I don't recall if you've traded for those). If the AI is going for econ, it won't really trade banking to you, either. Normally, you can put off grabing banking/econ/corp for a bit, because you don't get an immediate gain from the techs. Your science cities are busy building observatories and universities, which were just unlocked, and your mil cities are churning grens and rifles. Thus banking, econ, and corp don't get you much; I'd rather build a university over a bank , as I run with a high slider.

I don't think I have the answer for you, and I do think that lib is a sweet, sweet thing, but it's worth thinking about econ. My point basically boils down to this; it's like in trading tech. If an AI will give you 1000 gold for a tech, or the AI will give you a 1000 beaker tech for your tech, take the gold. It's worth more to you, because you can get 1000 beakers for fewer commerce than you can get 1000 gold.

As an aside, the AI rarely realizes this, which is fun when trading .

 

[Welnic]

The beakers for tech and the amount of a trade mission scale the same on epic compared to normal, 1.5 times bigger. So if you are thinking of a 3000 beaker tech versus a 2700 gold trade mission, that would be 4500 beakers versus 4050 gold, which since they scale the same is obviously the same.

Nice point on the gold worth more than beakers because of the lack of gold multiplying buildings compared to beaker multipliers.

 

[Seipheroth]

Without seeing the update on your current war, it is hard to say what the upgrade should be. If you have not taken out both civs then I’m guessing that Grenadiers are the best bet because of their immediate use (though it depends on what units a remaining civ has). If you have taken out both civs or are close to doing so, I would focus on preparing a naval attack, acquiring some cashola and then making the choice to upgrade units immediately prior to bringing the pain.

Melon head makes a good point about a GM. And I’m guessing the immediate gratification of Lib might not be as useful as jingling pockets. But, again, I await the update. (which makes me wonder why I didn’t just wait until then to post – oh yeah, that’s right, I’m killing time at work) .

 

[Sisiutil]

oh yeah, that’s right, I’m killing time at work .

You too? What a coincidence!

 

[IPEX-731BA5DD06]

Samurai go obsolete when macemen go obsolete. They're better than macemen, but not that much better; basically, they have a higher chance against muskets, although both will probably loose.

I beg to differ, 2 First Strikes, CR III Samurai, have an excellent chance against a musketman with the 10% V's Gunpowder units, and 75% Attacking cities bonus, that's a cummalitive bonus of 85% from a base of 8 that's..Umm &*^% 14.8 plus any combat bonuses given as well... Musketman, BUILT from scratch..no promotions allowed...base marker of 9 with CG II...very unlikely, as the AI usually gives combat, and CG I if it has a barracks at all. Attacking as it get gunpowder, it has to BUILD these units, not UPGRADE THEM, so at most you'll face 1 or 2. Mostly it'll build pillaging units..initially, then defenders as it loses cities....

You may lose a Samurai or 2, but new Samurai, with just CR I & II, no cover, and free Combat 1, usually do the job. Maceman aswell...

Agree on Rifle's/Grenadiers

On rest of Post Weeeeeeeeeee my head spins....