ALC Game 17: Russia/Peter

[futurehermit]

I wouldn't worry about tech pace per se as scientists + lightbulbing and trading can make up any deficit...in the mid-to-long term. In the short-term I'm worried about: 1) striking and 2) if you are going to attack Ragnar, him getting longbows.

 

[carl corey]

Unless he does a concentrated beeline for Feudalism I don't think he'll get Longbows before we hit him with Axemen. You guys play on Emperor too much. We should be able to get to the capital in time especially if we ignore any other cities on the way. And really, that capital is too juicy not to capture! Why tech with a few specialists in crappy cities when there's such a city nearby?! Come on, the BetterAI might be better, but I've never been wrong with an axemen rush straight to the capital on Monarch and below! As Barbeerian said, you can add a few chariots, maybe send them first with flanking, but having 5-6 axes or a bit more should do the trick! Just scout before to see what's there and head straight for it after declaring war. You'll recover your economy with his gems!

 

[futurehermit]

Agreed, the skill level is low enough and the speed is epic so rushing the capital seems plausible. There will have to be a recovery period after wiping out the Vikings, but post-recovery your tech pace should be unrivaled, especially if you are lightbulbing sufficiently.

 

[jerVL/kg]

Whether we run specialists or not, I would still prioritize a library in Moscow. It seems foolhardy not to build one...why else beeline Writing?

But I still think it's imperitive to get research going quickly, at least in the short term. The eastern cities need Fishing to be worth anything, plus Mysticism (obelisks) to claim the fish. Pottery's also important since granaries make whipping much more effective, and as I said before, they're dirt cheap.

Working scientists in Moscow will also speed up the first great person. Does anyone know what a GS will bulb at this point? Alphabet, perhaps?

After Pottery, though, it's a good idea to dial back research and start the axeman rush. I wouldn't wait for swords, IW will take too long. (And I have a feeling iron will turn up in the tundra or the desert...if we have it at all.)

 

[Validator]

What would you recommend instead, then? Cottages?

No. I recommend the triple fur city. Its low production won't stand in the way of getting the necessary infrastructure built. An important point is the deer and a forested tundra fur are adjacent to the city, so it won't need a border expansion to work them. And at 3 hammers/turn it will only take 15 turns to build a monument. St. Pete can build the fishing boat. There's a forest on a tundra hill that can be chopped to speed the granary.

So the city shouldn't take long to reach size 5 and at that point generate about 16 commerce. That'll nearly match the commerce output of the other cities.

I would try to get the wheat city founded as well once the fur city starts working a fur or two. The fur city should come first since once St. Pete and Moscow start churning out axes the economy will tank quickly. Look at Round 4 of the Cyrus ALC and notice how the gold rate steadily drops from 1900BC to 670BC while Sisiutil is building up his force of immortals. It ends up at +1 GPT at 10%. And that was with a military of only 11 immortals and 1 warrior IIRC.

A bigger army is going to be needed in this game, and the fur city is the best way to pay for it (really the only way).

BTW a GS would lightbulb Math at this point.

 

[carl corey]

The capital has a decent production. It could pump out axemen, the library should be built in Nidaros. To quote Dr Elmer Jiggle: "There are very few map problems that a few axemen can't solve."

First GS would lightbulb Maths anyway. Edit: You ARE Philosophical. Must've been drunk yesterday...

 

[Validator]

PS- I play vanilla, does binomail research help in Warlords? If so, ignore above paragraph .

I don't think anyone said this, so I'll go ahead and answer, but, your PS suspicion is correct. In Warlords everything is rounded out two decimal places, so the effect of binomial research (And a lot of other plays with rounding errors) is minimal.

I also thought that with Warlords there really wasn't any reason to use binary research anymore. But I just checked the save and I found out that Sisiutil is losing 1 of his 11 total commerce each turn by not running research at 100% or 0%.

The game appears to round all fractional amounts down, so anything less than a full unit of or gets lost. I guess in Warlords this is now done at an empire wide level instead of at the city level, so the loss is capped at 1 commerce/turn.

Once an empire gets bigger I guess losing 1 commerce doesn't really matter, but this early in the game it's a big percentage loss. I'll have to keep that in mind from now on.

 

[Porphyrius]

So now economy is considered a priority over . And the poor site of any copper possible city is realized. No matter, little use of crying over spiled milk.

Well, lets see about . At around size 5 our 2 cities + wheat city would come up with 13 + 7 + 6 = 26 . That can support a dozen+ axes for the rush. Making 26 into 36 is really not essential if Ragnar's capital is taken first. Plus we ll get a bit more as trade routes when the cities are conected.

So the thing is we need the cities to grow, a time lenthy proccess as i allready pointed out.
Starting with Moscow, let it grow while building barracks after the settler ( its size 2 building a settler like its 2500-3000BC ). Get a worker back here eventually and mine those hills. Moscow can make 12 , it needs not be overwhiped! The library can wait our focus should be as early as possible rush. Having IW would be nice but not essential, as we may get poor iron site as well if at all.

Concerning writing, it got us OB early and scouting, and using a lib in St. Pet. for culture is not a bad idea either. We could chop twice (one hill will get mine soon anyhow) and work the copper for 5/turn. Considering that we save 7 turns compared to monument we may well be done poping before mysticism can even be researched and get fishing instead. Then just chop a lib in the last city as the forest health is a luxury the cities will never get that big.

The game appears to round all fractional amounts down, so anything less than a full unit of or gets lost. I guess in Warlords this is now done at an empire wide level instead of at the city level, so the loss is capped at 1 commerce/turn.

Now theres something new, I guess i have to trouble myself micromanaging the SR as well till at least 30 raw or so...

 

[pigswill]

If Sisiutil is going for an axe-rush then the earlier the better; the only building that may be needed is barracks then build axes until research is down to 0% and worry about research once the vikings are history.

 

[futurehermit]

If Sisiutil is going for an axe-rush then the earlier the better; the only building that may be needed is barracks then build axes until research is down to 0% and worry about research once the vikings are history.

i concur with that. i think given the way things have played out that that is the way to go.

 

[thresh74]

I think right now the commerce city (fur, deer and crab location) needs to be setup first. Surplus at 40% with only two city does not look good. And the production city (wheat, cow, fish) can go second. Then all the way to rush Ragner.

About the technology, we really need to know how many civs on our continent. Can we hope to meet two more civs ? Then definitely research alphabet. It will almost gurantee the trading of mathmatics and iron-working. Math is one-step closer to construction and swordsman is way better than axeman when attacking archer in the city. A few scientists should be able get it done timely.

If no more civs, I suggest to reasearch iron-working. The same reason above. It is also very likely iron will pop in the captial's BFC. Otherwise, that's too unfair. We may also need to pillage Ragner's iron mine at the beginning of war. It is touchy if we meet only one more civ. It is really dependent on who the leader is.

We have spare scout, right? Let's send them out to explore. During this, I would first research Pottery to gain access to cheap granary and to put a few cottage in Moscow. We need growth and economy anyway.

Ragner will unaviodably put cities in your direction. Use those as training groud for the swordsman to get CR2, and get the loot money to support the large army. At beginning of war, send out two chariots to his capiton to pillage every tiles (especially those gem mines and potential iron mine) and camp there to prevent him using good tiles. Those chariots can be used as cannon fodder when you assult the capital.

 

[futurehermit]

I think right now the commerce city (fur, deer and crab location) needs to be setup first. Surplus at 40% with only two city does not look good. And the production city (wheat, cow, fish) can go second. Then all the way to rush Ragner.

Delaying rushing Ragnar risks him taking feudalism (longbows) off of the oracle (3 gems + marble). This does happen and can be a huge blow to your plans to expand.

 

[thresh74]

Delaying rushing Ragnar risks him taking feudalism (longbows) off of the oracle (3 gems + marble). This does happen and can be a huge blow to your plans to expand.

How soon you think we can hit Ragner anyway? We do not have an army and the distance is huge. If you worry about Feudalism slingshot, maybe a pillage war first? I do not have an idea with better AI mod. Even if he did get Feudalism, we just need to take his outlying city first and come back with catapults. I do not see this game going anywhere without waring with Ragner.

Another thing is I will withdraw all the fog-busting guy soon once a few chariots or axemans are built. The barb will be a good source of exp now. It will be good to have a medic chariot when fighting with Ragner start. And if they settle on a right spot,

 

[OldDays]

A great man once said: "It's the economy, stupid!"

You can beat Civ4 with a weak military and strong economy. With a strong military but a weak economy, though, you are bound to lose. What good does it do to build a massive axe army if they'll all desert before they reach the Viking capital???

I know what you are saying, but this is just underlining the need to go and take this powerfull holy-clam-three-gem-city drool: ) off Ragnars snotty hands

Your concerns about economy crushing and an imminent revolt are very reasonable. Sisiutil has to handel this very carefully of course (whooops, wrong smiley... errr, maybe not )

...anyway, Sisiutil will take care of this somehow

It's "to win the mare or lose the halter" this time, I guess Good luck to you Sisiutil for the upcomming war. May this be Ragnars Waterloo!!!

 

[EEE_BOY]

Ragnar is tough on techs, he won't trade techs even u r pleased with him. he is not mad about religious ,so u won't get him to trade by sharing his religion. the only way is to take him down quickly.

so settle the blue city for the production and once u take two viking cities settle the fur-crab city for the commerce bonus. six cities is enough early and settle the nanal city when u get canlender.

pay attension to the tile in vikings land, if u see a mine in grassland tile or 5+ hammer mine in hill, pillage it at all cost because it must be iron that u can't see.

 

[TheArchduke]

If it wasn´t Ragnar, we could consider other options.

But with him as a neighbour, you better kill him now and quickly. He won´t be any help anyway.

 

[Spammurabi]

For your third city, I would definitely build a canal city just north of the incence, to grab both incenses and the clam for a food source.

 

[EEE_BOY]

canal city has little production which can't produce axeman quick as u need. and it has no immediate commerce boost. in the ancient era, navy is less important so the canal city can wait at least after u have the canlender.

i think the third city choice lies between the blue city and the crab-fur city. depending on what u want next. for axe rush, the blue city is better.

 

[MangleMeElmo]

You really need to at least take Nidaros ASAP. Ragnar has nice territory and he's financial. It won't be long before he starts to run away with the game. Settling the copper was good. At this point I'd whip up maybe 8 axemen and go for the throat. Even if you don't kill Ragnar outright, you must derail him very soon.

EDIT: Also, you should probably found your canal city while you try to cripple/kill Raggy. Block him from your territory and use the city as a rally point for a second invasion if needed.

 

[Tyrael]

Should the next round pose larger-than-expected problems and Sisi falls way behind, the only viable option for victory becomes Diplomatic. If the axe-rush fails or Ragnar's capitol and other cities later prove too lacking to recover that miserable economy quick enough to stay competitive with Mehmed, I'd say SUCK UP. If you can't assimilate Mehmed (or God help Russia, Ragnar) then you're far enough behind that Space Race isn't viable and by that time it's too late for cultural, so Diplo is the only viable possibility.

But that won't happen. I'm sure Ragnar won't mind "sharing" a few gems...