ALC Game 18, Take 2: Spain/Isabella

[carl corey]

I'd close borders with both again, trying to REX on the rest of the available territory while keeping a few stacks (one for Romans, two for Portugal) so that they don't think you're weak and invade. Just remember that the Romans can still send galleys to settle your lands, so I'd go for Blue city as soon as possible.

 

[pigswill]

Its also worth considering that as soon as you start expanding your maintenance costs will rise faster than on Monarch so research will probably slow down, at the same time if you don't expand someone else will so you'll have to balance those out. At the same time you'll need to balance out building workers/settlers, building units so you don't fall too far behind and building basic infrastructure (granaries, culture media). If you want to build any wonders on top of that you'd have to figure out what you're willing to forego.

 

[oyzar]

Settle the last cities then get the stables then take out jao then take our ceasar? sounds pretty straightforward to me, given that you have blocked off both of them it shouldnt pose too much of a problem if they dont decleare on you.

 

[Winston Hughes]

Settle the last cities then get the stables then take out jao then take our ceasar? sounds pretty straightforward to me

Yeah, it does sound straightforward when you put it like that.

Problem is, Sis has got to figure out how to actually get it done.

 

[KMadCandy]

i'd close borders with joao again but only after sneaking a peak at his capital. i don't think he has metal in there but you never know, he could be a total sploiter or something. edit: closing borders with him doesn't do much good after optics, he's joao, he can put settlers on his caravels. duh i knew that, that's why i'm having such fun playing him in my current game! i didn't sleep last night, it shows.

i guess gus signed up for the "guaranteed iron, but almost everything else requires calendar" resource package this round huh?

there's no downside to putting off the horse-whispering quest until you have the time for it (as long as that's before the deadline). you're allowed to have more than one quest at a time, so don't panic about "i have to finish this or i won't get the uber library quest of goodness" *giggle*.

nice luck with the huts! i saw somebody asking about "are you sure you're on emperor?" haha! from noble to deity that's actually identical, 2 of the 20 potential results from a hut are "tech". it just doesn't feel like it, since the AI gets so many more starting units, and makes other units faster, so they get to the huts faster than we can. and more of the other results can be barbs, which can kill us (oops), and if we do survive all that, we have to bring our units back home earlier to be fogbusters, etc.

ps my current joao game on a terra map, i got music and astro from huts so now i'm less jealous of your peter take 2 game . but i'm not the joao crowding you and planning on backstabbing you, so don't give me that look!

 

[Gooblah]

Since Augustus will be getting a Great Spy, at least hamper his efforts by getting a spy in each city and two (dunno, don't have BTS) in Madrid and Seville. Next, Joao must be eliminated by the time he hits Optics, which is probably what he's beelining to. Why? By sticking Settlers on Caravels, like KMadCandy said, he can pass through Madrid/Augustus's borders to grab city sites like Blue and Pink. Unless you REX fast. Also, the combo will let him discover new civs...then build cities on their turf. More traders for him, less for us.

 

[Rameau's Nephew]

I agree with Slobberin-- do a quick scout of Joao's territory to confirm that he has no metals, get your iron online, and take him down with swords and spears. (Perhaps settling Blue in the interim to claim those gems.) A boxed-in metal-less neighbor is too good to pass up. If you REX then conquer, you'll risk either crippling maintenance costs (if you hurry) or an opponent with longbows (if you wait to develop your new cities).

 

[Bhruic]

I disagree. An opponent with Longbows is no problem for Cats. The problem is that if you don't grab all the northern land, Augustus will. Your city might manage to grow fast enough to block him off from walking there, but then he'll switch to sailing. Grab the land yourself. Joao isn't going anywhere, and he won't be tough enough to attack you, so take him down at your leisure.

Bh

 

[Hackapell]

I'm still very worried by the fact that you settled the chokepoint, but that may be my paranoia and Emperor speaking.
Now would be a good time to take out an opponent to eliminate the two fronts you've decided to make. Joao's cities will be much less of a financial burden, and he's closer, so he gets the axe. You MUST MSUT MUST exersice caution when you declare, becuase Augustus is watching with his Praets, waiting for an opening. Shared religion will probably not stop him. In fact, the amount of troops it will take to keep Augustus from getting involved and defeating Joao may be too much for your economy, so warmongerering imo has been made harder by blocking off both civs.

 

[Kev]

I with the REXing crowd. Get some missionaries out to the locals and build up and tech while keeping two trading partners and expand on our own. Once others are met and more options are presented for trading, it'd be time to take out our continent-mates.

 

[Belisar]

I'm still very worried by the fact that you settled the chokepoint, but that may be my paranoia and Emperor speaking.
Now would be a good time to take out an opponent to eliminate the two fronts you've decided to make. Joao's cities will be much less of a financial burden, and he's closer, so he gets the axe. You MUST MSUT MUST exersice caution when you declare, becuase Augustus is watching with his Praets, waiting for an opening. Shared religion will probably not stop him. In fact, the amount of troops it will take to keep Augustus from getting involved and defeating Joao may be too much for your economy, so warmongerering imo has been made harder by blocking off both civs.

I agree but also understand your reasoning, fearing to have not metals.
Nevertheless I doubt that you can peacefully expand and grab all the land with 2 emperor AIs already out of space.
IMO this was one of the situations where an early rush (chariots in this case) would actually have been the save variant.
While the northern land has long-term potential, short time the south is more fertile/productive so even now a sword rush of Joao as soon a spossible would be my suggestion.

 

[TheArchduke]

If we were in Joao's shoes, we'd tech to Feudalism to improve our archers. So let's conquer him now before he gets that bright idea. With the land he has, Joao could settle, at most, two more cities -- one to the far west, and one to his east, though he'd have to get there by ship now that you've blocked him.

Nods, I am still in favour of a quick death of Joao. Without longbows will be a piece of cake.

In any case, complete the quest of Horse whispering. +1 food alone is Awesome!

 

[URSExelcior]

This is the best part in a Civ/ALC game IMO. When you can acctually feel threatened by other civs... I've found that once a player reaches 1000ADish dates, even on diety, the game is pretty much over. The AI is pretty incompetent past the early AD's.

Great series. I've been lurking around for a while and this made me subscribe.

 

[KMadCandy]

You MUST MSUT MUST exersice caution when you declare, becuase Augustus is watching with his Praets, waiting for an opening. Shared religion will probably not stop him.

just pray that gus makes the pyramids and you get the oracle. then it's easy ... he switches to rep, you take constitution from the oracle and disco, +wise civics, you're buddies! oh wait, you didn't take up someone's suggestion to move to settler level, scratch that...

i'm really interested in these guys actually. i have quite frankly no idea what gus will do. i've never had trouble with him, but i've never had him stuck in a corner with nowhere on the map to go except thru me. he seems to always be safely far enough away from me that we can be pals. (well ok cabert & fb, i had trouble with him in that SG, but he didn't start it, one of us DoWd him )

and joao, i don't remember playing against him yet. if i have, it wasn't as a next door neighbor. so seeing how they react to what you do will be educational in itself. besides the whole learning from the glory of your battle and your impeccable strategy and valiant tactics, you know, the usual *knock wood* *giggle*.

edit: i think i get to be the first to say welcome to (the posting side of) CFC URSExelcior

 

[Sisiutil]

I wonder why you haven't switched to OR civic since you already have switched to Jud religion???

Yeah, that occurred to me after I posted the game last night and took the dog for a walk. "Crap. Did I change civics?" Insert forehead slap here. I'll switch to OR first thing in the next round.

As with the previous round--heck, as with every game--there appear to be two prevailing schools of thought.

On the one hand, I should REX peacefully while teching towards the military capabilities (Catapults and Crossbowmen) needed to take down my neighbours.

On the other hand, I should take down Joao NOW when he's weak, before he gets Longbowmen. No, Longbowmen aren't invincible, but they are a pain and it's always nice to avoid them.

There are concerns about the economy as well, especially what a lot of expansion will do to it. And then there's the quest to worry about.

I think a hybrid approach may work best. The main goal of expansion at this point would be to ensure that I get the land I want so my neighbours don't. The most obvious solution is to settle the blue city site (fish/gems/copper) as soon as possible. With that city in place and no open borders, both Augustus and Joao are blocked from expanding by either land or sea until Caravels for Joao (he won't live long enough to build one, trust me) and Galleons for Augustus (ditto). Blue city, with the gems, will quickly be able to pay for itself for some time, so its impact on the economy will be less than any other city.

Blue city, then, would buy me some time to build the other cities at my leisure. Which means I could then have time to devote towards units that could take down Joao. I'll send a Chariot into his territory quickly to verify he has no metal, then close borders again.

Can anyone calculate how long before Augustus gets his Great Spy? And will the AI use the GSpy for infiltration? From what I've seen, the BtS AI prefers to use the GW GSpy for other uses, including----a golden age. Should I wait and see what Augustus does before investing a bunch of hammers in Spies I may never use?

 

[Gooblah]

Golden Age?! What?!

Also, if the GW gives +2 GP points for Spies, and it was built in 1250 BC...50 turns would be, itll tkae 100 turns...
if 10 yrs per turn, then 250 BC
if 5 yrs per turn, 750 BC

Since I don't know the Epic year per turn rate, this is probably not a good estimate.
Spies are useful even if you're not inflitrated. You can use them on Augustus himself. Now, Augustus's Great Wall probably won't help him much since barbs are going to be few on this land mass. I suggest beating down Joao, REXing after Code of Laws, and sporadically checking on Augustus to see where he is in tech. Or, leave Joao with one city, his weakest. Take the rest, pump culture till there's no chance of revolt. Augustus will still trade, and Joao won't compete by the time you hit Optics, so you can wipe him out then.

 

[KMadCandy]

Can anyone calculate how long before Augustus gets his Great Spy? And will the AI use the GSpy for infiltration? From what I've seen, the BtS AI prefers to use the GW GSpy for other uses, including----a golden age. Should I wait and see what Augustus does before investing a bunch of hammers in Spies I may never use?

do you still have OB with gus? i'd make a missionary and get it up to him before i'd make a bunch of spies, actually. theories are that a shared religion won't be enough to calm him down if/when you look weak when you pound on joao, and i certainly can't promise you it would be, but it won't hurt relations. potential downsides are what, he gets happiness, OR for faster buildings, better troops if he gets theo too (ouchers), and he likes joao more if joao gets judaism too. once joao's gone he won't trade techs with you anyway so the only purpose is to placate him, is that right? Friendly only cancels out WFYABTA, it doesn't cancel out the "i must know someone other than you who is still alive" rule? so actually it might not be worth it, i dunno. you know what a wuss i am, i prefer them to like me more since i'm permaskeeeeered.

i have seen the AI use the great wall great spy for a golden age, twice, that was lower than emperor though.

 

[NaZdReG]

you'll see what he does with it shortly after you get the message of it spawning. if he does not start a golden age immediately you need to worry for your safety. just imagine getting forment unhappiness/health in your cities.. crippling!!!

and if he can steal your techs you'll never have a military advantage on him. so I'd have atleast 1-2 spies hanging around in blue and your choke city to try to get some % of catching his spies as they make way through territory.

a couple of spys isnt that much in hammers.. and the risk of not having them too great to pass up in this situation.

NaZ

 

[phurph]

This is the best part in a Civ/ALC game IMO. When you can acctually feel threatened by other civs...

I agree. This is great!

Barcelona. Interesting situation here, Sisiutil. You have three cottages. If this gets the Temple of Solomon and becomes the Wall Street city, you may want to run merchants and thus have farms instead of cottages (if you will run high science slider). This is of course further down the road but it seems relevent now.

Obviously, you need commerce now so cottaging the floodplains makes sense. But you have to invest time to make cottages worthwhile improvements (village/town >> cottage). If you get Currency or COL soon, will you consider bulldozing the cottages and running merchants?

I don't know what I'd do, I'd love some discussion

Merchant approach for Barcelona:
Can ignore library, instead replace with Market, and later add Grocer & Bank. Farm floodplains, run merchants. This allows you to run higher science slider (probably not that much) to funnel money into capital (under beauro). When you run out of things to build, you can build wealth. People have talked bout this on other threads before...

couple other things:
1) where to run scientists first (obviously 2 sugar-fish site will be GP farm later)?
2) get gem city soon (it will pay for itself and add happiness (forges too!).
3) how do you plan to build all this stuff: army, workers, settlers, libs, granaries, forges!, missionaries!?

 

[patagonia]

Obviously, you need commerce now so cottaging the floodplains makes sense. But you have to invest time to make cottages worthwhile improvements (village/town >> cottage). If you get Currency or COL soon, will you consider bulldozing the cottages and running merchants?

I don't know what I'd do, I'd love some discussion

Merchant approach for Barcelona:
Can ignore library, instead replace with Market, and later add Grocer & Bank. Farm floodplains, run merchants. This allows you to run higher science slider (probably not that much) to funnel money into capital (under beauro). When you run out of things to build, you can build wealth. People have talked bout this on other threads before...

In the first Isabella game, running caste system and hiring merchants was the right move as it dovetailed nicely with the grand strategy to expand and grow a large pop to win the AP vote. In this game, cottaging Barcelona early on makes the most sense. S will need the commerce from those early cottages for research now and troop support later, once stacks of swords and spears (no axes unless Joao has metal!!) advance into Portugal. Further down the line once a GP has been born and the Temple of Solomon founded, it makes sense to start running merchant specialists in Barcelona, but that's a good 75-100 turns away from being the best approach so for now the cottages should stay.

However, S shouldn't be afraid to bulldoze them later, should the game last to the point where a decent WS city is required.