ALC Game #22 Take 2: Arabs/Saladin

[madscientist]

I say settle one spot north of where you are and stop running your settler arround. Tech masonry first, build a worker and a road to the stone. Quarrey the stone ASAP, tech agriculture/AH. As soon as the Quarrey is done, build the Great Wall. Then consider your options.

My opinion is you ran your settler arround too much for a leader that has particularly weak starting techs on Emperor level. My feeling is you may have somewhat compromised the start a bit by the delay in settling, use the GW to get a GSpy to settle and direct the eps versus one AI and steal techs to level the techfield a bit. You will also need alphabet for spy production. With the Massadra you can get Prophets fairly quickly and thus still get a later religion.

 

[slobberinbear]

Two wonders doth not a wonder-whore make. Border expansion, 4 GPPs/turn (Prophets and Engineers, to boot), free government civic choice (with no Anarchy, either) ... seems good to me and worth the tech diversion to masonry and the opportunity cost of putting hammers into wonders early. Stonehenge and the Pyramids will allow him to REX and grow vertically, and being Spritual, the 1N (of present location) capital will permit swapping back and forth from peacetime (caste system + representation) and wartime (slavery+police state) at a whim.

EDIT: My case for Stonehenge: It's cheap, gives border pops without religion, and gives us a great prophet early, which is handy for lightbulbing religion or settling for hammers and gold.

Sisiutil is skilled at getting out wonders fast while exploring and settling.

We start with Mysticism and the Wheel. We want to grow and hook up the stone. Therefore:

1. Agriculture, to get the corn online
2. Mining, for bronze working and a slight masonry discount
3. Masonry, to get the stone online and get some hammers
4. Bronze Working, for the usual reasons
5. Hunting to get Archery and a slight Animal Husbandry discount
6. Archery to get Protective Archers
7. Animal Husbandry, to get piggies and expose horses
8. Pottery, for cottages, granaries, and access to writing
9. Writing, for the Madrassa and open borders

This would suggest a build order along the lines of:
1. Warrior to size 2 (since the corn and pigs can be worked profitably un-improved, and it gives us time to research Agriculture)
2. Worker -- for farming, quarrying, and chopping
3. Finish Warrior
4. Stonehenge (chopped/whipped, since Quarry unlikely to be finished and hooked up)
5. Settler

Given the resources and tech at our disposal, this can all get done by 2500 B.C. or so. Depending on the map situation, Sisiutil can then go for the Pyramids (and possbily even the Great Wall) or REX a bit first. If he does get the Great Wall, he could push back archery a bit.

 

[JacktheBodiless]

I guess I am not sure what approach Sisiutil wants to take in this game. Apart from the Pyramids, I don't see any need for early wonders. Great Wall is definitely not better than an extra city, and neither is Stonehenge. Seeing stone should not trigger "Stonehenge" feelings... it should trigger, "Oh good, my capital can be building something during those times growth is stuck at the happiness cap and the food resources aren't as useful" feelings. Especially with the Madrassa at our disposal, who cares about Stonehenge or Monuments!?

As I have started playing games at high difficulty level, it seems like (unless you have a near neighbor to pick on) the goal in the early years is to get the first 4-6 cities up and defended while focusing on economic growth. Everything else is frosting, if you are lucky enough to be allowed some frosting. Anything that doesn't contribute to expansion or defense is ancillary. And, @ the GW people: which would you rather have, a fence to keep the barbs out, or an army that has fattened in experience from killing them.

The Pyramids is OP enough that it is a must-have, especially for an SE, but let the AI build the other stuff for you!

Btw, settle 1N, go Ag --> Mining --> BW --> AH (or Hunting --> AH, depending on whether you need the Pig quick or not so quick) --> Masonry --> then Pottery --> Writing versus Archery (or Hunting --> Archery if you didn't pick up Hunting) depending on the game situation.

Build order --> Worker, Warriors (while you grow to happiness cap), Settler.

This is what I will be doing in my shadow game, we'll see how it works!

 

[madscientist]

My view is that Sis has moved arround alot with no food techs and 2 techs away from any military. Getting the Great Wall fast via using the available stone eliminates the need for early military and at laast focus on food. It would allow him to generate a GSpy whih can be settled for 3 beakers and 12 eps. The extra eps will allow him to steal techs and level the tech field a bit.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Sisiutil]

Decisions, decisions!

Well, I tend to agree that delaying settling probably means giving Stonehenge a miss. No big, especially not with Saladin. The Great Wall and the Pyramids are both tempting, however--once expansion is underway. I don't like to go after a wonder until I have at least 1 more city, so that one can focus on military/worker/settler builds in the meantime.

Also, madscientist, I tend to prefer to use the GW-spawned GSpy for infiltration. Being able to steal techs at will from the tech leader is awesome. That would more than make up for delaying the capital by 2 turns! However, if we're isolated, I agree that settling him would make more sense.

 

[LuCiver]

Hi Gang,
This is my first opportunity to catch an ALC game at the beginning, but it looks like I am too late already. The starting moves that Sis has made make me want to weep. I'm a builder at heart, not much of a fighter, and Saladin is actually one of my top picks. Going for an early religion is not just role playing. One of the strengths of Spiritual is cheap temples, which require an early religion (you don't have to adopt it, just have it). And priesthood (req. for temples) opens up writing and the Madrassa. A Spiritual temple costs 40H compared to a 30H monument and it does not go obsolete. My favorite Sal opening is settle in place and go for Polytheism>Masonry>Monotheism to try to pick up a pair of religions. As long as you have a decent tile that includes 1C (like that sweet river pigs) Poly is a gimmie even on emperor. But once your settler starts wandering around you have lost any opportunity for early religion.

But since we cannot turn back time (except by starting a shadow), I will side with the no stonehenge folks. Move 1E and settle in the original spot. You need woods to get the henge, not stone, don't let the name fool you. And those woods would be better used for GW or Pyramids. Let's just think seriously a strategy that includes picking up some religion soon. How about Oracle for CoL, confucianism, and caste system?

 

[madscientist]

Settling the Great Spy will get you more techs in the long run as well as a significant early boost to research. The 12 eps double with scotland yard, and triples with a jail and Intelligene Agency. Something to consider whether you are Isolated or not.

 

[Bandobras Took]

Especially with the Madrassa at our disposal, who cares about Stonehenge or Monuments!?

As I have started playing games at high difficulty level, it seems like (unless you have a near neighbor to pick on) the goal in the early years is to get the first 4-6 cities up and defended while focusing on economic growth.

You answered your own question. City placement is usually determined in the early game by the resources you can grab. The first build many recommend in a city is the monument so you can get the border pop to grab all resources in the BFC, thus aiding your economic growth. The Madrassa is a nice culture boost, but sometimes waiting to build a Library is too slow for a necessary border expansion.

And, @ the GW people: which would you rather have, a fence to keep the barbs out, or an army that has fattened in experience from killing them.

You make it sound like there's a choice between the two. Any troops that need experience can still go take out the Barbarians hanging around your borders. So the question is: if you can reasonably gain the Great Wall, would you rather have immunity to Barbarian pillaging, bonus points toward a Great Spy, doubled Great General production in your cultural borders, and experienced troops from Barbarians you have picked off at your leisure, or just the experienced troops.

The Pyramids is OP enough that it is a must-have, especially for an SE, but let the AI build the other stuff for you!

I maintain that if you ever reach the point where you can only think of one way to play, you need to drop back down a difficulty level.

 

[slaze]

But once your settler starts wandering around you have lost any opportunity for early religion.

My view is that Sis has moved arround alot with no food techs

It's only been one turn, guys, I wouldn't rule out anything just yet.

With all this talk of wonders, I'd like to remind you that The Hanging Gardens is pretty sweet wonder. This start definately points towards Mathematics, I'm not sure if Saladin does, but if you can get your 6-7th city down just before it hits, it puts you in great shape. I like to make sure there's some improvement in the area so it's not working trees - like a third ring improvement off the capitol, kinda like the stone.

But with the potential for specialists, the Pyramids seems the purer thing to do. Focus should be diverted there, among other things.

 

[Validator]

I think arguments can be made for each of the three possible capital sites: current location, 1N, or original settler site. The first two keep the option of going after an early stone wonder. You will still have a bit of time to do some exploring before deciding whether expansion can be delayed to pursue a shiny stone thing.

As to which wonder, GW is the stronger of the two IMO, although that's mainly because early Great Spies are so overpowered. We've already seen that effect in the Gilgamesh ALC game so maybe it's not a good option here. SH is a bit cheaper so it will cause less of a delay with expansion and it fits in with an overall strategy of trying to generate Prophets. What to do?

As to the details of how to go about it I see two approaches, the direct get it ASAP approach and the delayed, after expansion to 2 cities approach. The first pretty much guarantees not being beaten, while the second minimizes the impact of pursuing an early wonder.

The first would involve teching Mining->Masonry at the start while building a worker first. (There's really no point in researching Masonry first since the worker won't be available that early and Mining will make Masonry a bit cheaper.) The worker then roads to the stone tile and builds the quarry, finishing around 3000 BC. While the worker is hooking up the stone BW is researched. It will have several turns left when the worker finishes the quarry, so the worker will need to road a couple of forest tiles.

Once BW is finished the worker can start chopping a forest. If the city switches to the wonder build as soon as the quarry is finished, and works the stone tile, Stonehenge should finish around 2700 BC, while GW will take a few turns longer so a little after 2500 BC. Then the expansion phase can begin. Of course if the scouting warrior finds that the neighborhood isn't really conducive to pursuing an early wonder then Masonry and the wonder can be skipped in favor of getting BW earlier for fastest possible expansion.

If I was going to try for delayed wonder building I would start by researching Mining->BW. Since there would be nothing for the worker to do other than road building I would start by building a warrior. By turn 14 the warrior can be done and the city grown to size 2. At that point start on the worker which should finish around the same time as BW. The goal should be to finish the worker the turn after BW finishes so that it can be whipped for maximum overflow.

The overflow would provide about a third of the hammers needed for a settler. The worker can then chop a forest (with the hammers put toward the settler) and then road to the stone tile. Masonry would be researched after BW and should be done by the time the road is finished so the worker can build the quarry. This gets the quarry done around 2600 BC.

Meanwhile the city should be building a warrior (other than the whip overflow and chop turns) until it reaches size 2, then switch to building the settler. I would look to whip the settler the turn before the quarry finishes. This should provide a lot of overflow hammers that can be put toward the wonder (with the stone bonus since the quarry is hooked up). The worker can then chop a forest to help speed the wonder. With this approach SH should finish around 2400 BC and GW around 2250 BC.

It's possible that you'll get beaten to them, but if you do you'll get a nice return on the hammers invested. And whether you get the wonder or not you still get a second city founded around 2500 BC (with copper revealed) so early expansion isn't seriously compromised. Of course you again have the option of skipping Masonry and the wonder if you decide that a focus on expansion is the best course of action in this game.

I would follow up with Agr->AH to get the two food tiles improved, and reveal horses in time for placement of a third city.

That should be enough for the first round.

 

[Validator]

Settling the Great Spy will get you more techs in the long run as well as a significant early boost to research. The 12 eps double with scotland yard, and triples with a jail and Intelligene Agency. Something to consider whether you are Isolated or not.

I agree with Sisiutil that infiltrating an early Great Spy is the best approach. Settling definitely produces more EPs in the long run, but you have to take into account the relative values of EPs at different times in the game. Stealing 5 or 6 techs by 500 AD is more valuable than stealing 9 or 10 techs by 1800 AD.

Also one important advantage of infiltrating is that the large number of EPs you get at that point make all your espionage missions a lot cheaper, and that applies to missions against all other civs, not just the one that was infiltrated. This includes passive missions, so among other things it makes it very easy to see what other civs are researching which can be a great advantage when it comes to tech trading. It also makes it less likely that your spies will be detected and more likely that enemy spies in your territory will be detected.

 

[Hereditary Rule]

If initial scouting reveals no close neighbors, the Great Wall is a fine option to save further hammers on units for defense while you instead devote them to infrastructure, building up your first 5-10 cities with only a unit each for happiness until you are actually ready for war.

Sis may not want to war until maces or even muskets - muskets with free promos.

 

[huerfanista]

I think it's way to early to commit to a strategy. To me, it makes the most sense to pick the first tech based on what gives you the most flexibility for what your warrior will discover in the opening turns. You may be relatively isolated, so a building/peaceful rex may be the best way to proceed. You may have a situation where your neighbors are a moderate distance away, too far for an easy rush and close enough that you will need to rex quickly to grab the good stuff. Or you may have someone right next door who will make life difficult for you unless you do an axe or chariot rex. Given the resources, I say Ag gives the most flexibility here: you need food to grow, and early irrigated wheat will give you a needed resource for all situations. For the same reason, I think the most flexible starting location is the original one. You save a turn, and that bare tile 2E in the middle of the forest just says "copper,iron,or horses" to me. Any of these would be great to have in the BFC if you need/want to do an EARLY rush (the best kind, IMHO). They all provide good or great production (btw, I think the stone is 1F4H, not 1F5H) even if there's no rush. I don't think you'll be ready to use the stone until the second border pop anyway, and to commit to a builder strat before knowing the neighborhood seems like a big risk. With stone hooked up, you should be able to get the GW with a couple of chops pretty quickly if you're not rushing someone. The Mids is in the bag regardless of how you start. Of course, there might be nothing in the 2E tile but plains. There are all kinds of luck in this game. Stone for wonder-whoring early might get you off to a powerful start. Or you may find that you need to do an early rush and the stone is useless for a good while. You may need to rex quickly via settlers and can't use the stone early either. Going for the stone may cost you a very early military resource that would get you a second capital easily. Choices, choices. In any case, forget about A TECH PATH and think about a couple of paths depending on what you find, and don't close out your options with opportunistic early tech decisions (masonry first, for instance) that narrow your options. Just my 2.

 

[madscientist]

OK, maybe 2 moves is no big deal. I play marathon and my thinking is that 2 moves in epic is , well EPIC!

Reagrding settling, not to but the ALC is for information, so I'll make another pitch.

Settling vs Infiltrate

1) Your target AI get's dogpiled and stops teching, leaving you with alot of worthless eps. A settled GS can redirect espionage to the next best AI.
2) What if you end up teching better than your espionage victum. Even Darius and Musa have poor teching games.
3) Settling GSpys with a scotland yard and appropriate use of a spy specialist in the capital will let you steal ALOT more than 8-10 techs during the game. More like 15-20, and consistently thoughout the game not just easrly stuff.
4) Sal is a week techign AI, especially with the slow start here. Espionage will help level the field.
5) An extra 3 beakers/turn is not trivial especially in the capital which is likely to have an academy and Oxford.
6) Finally, there are several games I played out as a walkthrough and RPC game showing how powerful the settled GSpy can be, especially for an AI like Saladin who is handicapped a bit with a weak protective trait.

Just my final push for a settled GSpy. Of course if you decide to skip the GW wonder it's a non-issue.

 

[Stuck in Pi]

I agree with Madscientist on settling the Great Spy. Get one settled, and often you can see your enemies early growth and cities.

 

[Sisiutil]

I agree with Madscientist on settling the Great Spy. Get one settled, and often you can see your enemies early growth and cities.

Since I have stone and a fast-track to masonry, and I haven't tried settling a GSpy before, this may be a very good opportunity to try out this tactic.

I'll just have to time things so the GSpy arrives before I divert the GP stream to Great Prophets from the Madrassa.

Another thing to consider with that, long term: given that Great People get more expensive, and that Saladin is not Philosophical, and that in the mid-game Great Scientists are usually more desirable (to go after Liberalism, build Academies, etc.)--perhaps we should consider a long-term Great Person strategy for Saladin?

 

[Nares]

perhaps we should consider a long-term Great Person strategy for Saladin?

Sure. Build Madrassas, then only run scientists.

I don't know how worthwhile it is to run the priests, especially as the Liberalism race seems to be the single most viable strategy at high levels of game play.

You might want a religion, just to spread it to a few key enemy border cities for reduced espionage costs (assuming it's your state religion, not their state religion, the target city has your state religion present in it, and an additional bonus for having the Holy City of that religion).

The first passive Great Person should come early enough that there's nothing worth bulbing, unless it's a prophet for Theology (I guess). Your alternative might be to beeline Monotheism, diverting only for worker techs, before researching Writing. That first Great Spy is probably the single best GP you can get at that point, so maybe a Great Wall/Monotheism gambit would be ideal.

 

[Sisiutil]

Sure. Build Madrassas, then only run scientists.

I don't know how worthwhile it is to run the priests, especially as the Liberalism race seems to be the single most viable strategy at high levels of game play.

Normally that's how I play with ordinary Libraries, but remember this is the ALC, the purpose of which is to show off just what you can do by exploiting each leader.

Let's not underestimate the value of settling an early Great Prophet. Gold and hammers are both in short supply in the early game, and a settled GP gives you a boost of both. Later in the game that boost is negligible, but that's true of Great Prophets in general. The point of Civ, frankly, is to eke out some early advantage and then exploit it all the way to victory.

 

[Kev]

I agree with those who say it's too early to start going crazy about the super-early builds. Nice to have some contingencies, but we are at least going to be building a warrior and worker - perhaps even more - before thoughts of wonders dance through our (collective) heads. In that time, scouting will add more to the picture and the thought process (and pages of suggestions) will follow once more. Early neighbors with key resources nearby would certainly take Henge off the table while distant ones may encourage it. Other factors will contribute as well.

The loss of a few turns might not be such a huge ordeal given the spiritual trait - so I still say get the best capital you can to make it even better once you have Civil Service researched. Without anarchy between civic and religion shifts (which we know Sis loves ) we'll make up those two turns with seamless shifts to slavery and whatever next one we choose. With Epic it's possible to save yourself upwards of 20+ turns if you like to shift civics often. It's like getting decent tech for free along with all of the production and income from your cities you do not lose...

With regard to the GSpy - I used to be an infiltrate supporter given the early techs are cheaper and the thought that the points won't be as valuable later when techs are so crazy expensive to steal. After watching the Mao game and others I've been converted to the "Settle" crowd. With some proper additional modifiers, the points can add up greatly and be of use the whole game through. It would be great to see this in an ALC game should the map and circumstances warrant the building of the GWall - and suggestions on how to utilize the spy slider (something I never seem to do in any of my own games) would be very educational.

 

[Artichoker]

I agree that Stonehenge is not important, I would rather chop the Great Wall in this start, we're not coastal and they both seem to go at the same time. 2000bc-ish for Stonehenge according to slaze, can't remember but it sounds about right, ca 2200 for both SH and TGW on immortal.

Pyramids is a given since it's so ridicuosly powerful but can wait for second border pop if you decide to settle in original spot. Just have some prechopping done. I don't see why we would settle in the original spot now though, a 1f5h tile is the main benefit of getting stone in the bfc and it's a good one, that it provides stone earlier has little effect.

A Plains Stone gives you 1F4H, which is only 1H more than a mined Grassland Hill, or 1F more than a mined Plains Hill.

The western side offers the Plains Stone, a Plains Hill, and one unknown tile. The eastern side offers a Grassland Hill and two unknown tiles.

Although the western side is likely to be better, the margin in total yield is not that great, and it will cost us a turn to move 1N, so that we can get the Corn.

As for the two unknown tiles on the eastern side, chances are the yield will be better than a Plains Hill (plus the one unknown tile on the western side). I'd be willing to take that chance, especially with a one-turn head start.

With the Plains Stone only 1H better than the Grassland Hill on the east, my bet goes with the extra turn and moving back to the Settler's original spot.