ALC Game #22 Take 2: Arabs/Saladin

You're quite right about war right now patagonia. He doesn't have the hammers for it right now and won't until he expands. He also doesn't have the techs either, so peaceful expansion is the only way to go in this situation, if Sis moves quickly he still has the potential to have a large empire before war becomes a necessity.

On the great spy debate, I think validator makes some good points on the immediate benefit of infiltrating the spy to Zara. But, as has been generally agreed Zara is likely to have a tech lead on us for some time, as will Sury for that matter. I believe that argues for settling the spy for long term benefit since our tech and land situation will likely mean stealing techs will be important right up until the late renaissance. If we can somehow generate another GSpy then we get Scotland yard up in the capital and will have an unassailable espionage lead right into the industrial era.
 
Impossible (at least for Calendar): Roosevelt and Zara can research calendar, so they obv don't have it, and Sury doesn't even have maths.

Ah, that is a good trick isn't it... ty. I guess I am often ahead in tech in my games (I honestly need to move up soon) that I don't need to use that trick often.
 
Well, usually I'm against infiltration, beakers/EP from GS are better but to be honest, Zara is easy to be bribed. If someone would bribe him to declare on Sis, it would be troublesome. Whereas huge espionage difference due to infiltration will mean that Sisiutil spies will survive easily on Zara land, sabotaging strategic resources, stealing techs, and creating havoc in various ways.

I'd infiltrate.
 
I say: Continue wonderspam. Get a load of protective archers/longbows. Keep everybody friendly (use spiritual to choose rivals fav civics when needed). Build Sistine Chappel. Go for cultural victory. Great Spy can still be used to get you to free speech fast enough.

Only problem is that there have to be founded a couple of religions on your continent for the needed cathedrals.
 
Sorry for the delay, but I wanted to hear more on the settle vs. infiltrate debate before deciding. However, what has become the clincher for me is the realization that while I have used a GSpy for early infiltration in a previous ALC (Gilgamesh), I haven't used one for settling before--so that's the route I'm going to take.

I'll play and post the round today, promise.
 
I think my brain is going to melt if there's no update soon.

No pressure, of course. :D
 
Just one thing to consider for the settling/infiltrating debate...

Most of the AI are designed to try and achieve a parity in EPs. If you settle the GSpy, you'll be generating a lot more EPs than any of the AIs can match (none of them have Courthouses yet, right?) - so the only way for them to try and match you will be to change the slider. The benefit for you is that that takes away from research, potentially slowing their tech advancement.

Infiltrating would have a similar effect, but only with whomever you infiltrated. In this particular case, I think settling would be far preferable.

Bh
 
Just one thing to consider for the settling/infiltrating debate...

Most of the AI are designed to try and achieve a parity in EPs. If you settle the GSpy, you'll be generating a lot more EPs than any of the AIs can match (none of them have Courthouses yet, right?) - so the only way for them to try and match you will be to change the slider. The benefit for you is that that takes away from research, potentially slowing their tech advancement.

Well, well, well. Isn't that an interesting thing to know. I guess that means that settling the early GSpy gives us the advantage of slowing down AI techs, BUT it would seem to open us up for unexpected early sabotage from enemy spies.
 
Just one thing to consider for the settling/infiltrating debate...

Most of the AI are designed to try and achieve a parity in EPs. If you settle the GSpy, you'll be generating a lot more EPs than any of the AIs can match (none of them have Courthouses yet, right?) - so the only way for them to try and match you will be to change the slider. The benefit for you is that that takes away from research, potentially slowing their tech advancement.

Infiltrating would have a similar effect, but only with whomever you infiltrated. In this particular case, I think settling would be far preferable.

Bh

Interesting, never heard of this before. So who are the AI's who do not desire to try and match EP's?
 
Interesting, never heard of this before. So who are the AI's who do not desire to try and match EP's?

You can check how much different leaders value espionage in the bts reference chart.
 
Round 6: 365 BC to 170 BC (13 turns)

Another short, cautious round... I haven't had very good luck with Saladin in the past, and I'm once again in a precarious position with him, hence these short rounds.

I started off by making a number of adjustments that several of you suggested. First off, I changed a number of my cities' builds, prioritizing growth and expansion instead of research, the economy, or even military:

ALC22_170BC_01.jpg


I also changed research, balancing out my de-emphasis of military in builds by pursuing a military tech:

ALC22_170BC_02.jpg


And as I said I would, I settled the Great Spy.

ALC22_170BC_03.jpg


As I mentioned, part of my reason for doing this is that we saw the early infiltration mission play out in the Gilgamesh game. So this time I decided to take a different path to see how that plays out. I certainly acknowledge Validator's point that I could probably really use the infiltration benefits in the short term, but part of the purpose of these games is to try something new. I'm sure someone in one of the shadow threads will try infiltration from this point in the saves to see how it compares.

With the GSpy settled (and producing 12 EPs and six research points per turn, thanks to the Pyramids and Representation), I adjusted my espionage points as follows:

ALC22_170BC_04.jpg


Another reason for the short round is to hear your opinions on the above: should I allocate all the points to one AI, or divide them as I've done above? By the end of the round, I could see what Suryavarman and Roosevelt were researching. Zara will take a little longer.

With those course corrections complete, it was time to augment my supply of Workers, courtesy of my black-bordered neighbours:

ALC22_170BC_05.jpg


On the next turn, I found out where everyone stands in terms of population size. It's interesting that I'm in the top 3, even with only 4 cities--no doubt thanks to Representation allowing my cities to be larger than they otherwise would be.

ALC22_170BC_06.jpg


Another turn, another purloined Barb Worker, because the AI is too stoooopid to move him to a safe place:

ALC22_170BC_07.jpg


As you'll see, I wasn't done nabbing Workers from our uncouth friends.

Meanwhile, Zara built another wonder:

ALC22_170BC_08.jpg


Dang, but his capital is starting to look awfully attractive. I know some of you were urging me to leave him alone for awhile, but he might be my first military target just for the wonders alone. Aksum now has the T of A and the Great Lighthouse, so it could produce Great Merchants like crazy.

On the tech side, I usually manage to use Alphabet to catch up in techs, but not in this game. By the time Zara was will to trade both Fishing and Polytheism for it (not the most even trade, but still), he clearly was almost finished researching Alphabet himself:

ALC22_170BC_10.jpg


Sure enough, on the next turn, he finished researching it, so I got nothing for it from him. Sury obtained it shortly after Zara, so Alphabet wasn't proving to be the catch-up bonanza tech it usually is.

Also on the next turn, Roosevelt got demanding, but I decided it would be a good idea to start patching up our relations.

ALC22_170BC_11.jpg


Roosevelt's usually pretty easy to get along with, but he plainly is capable of carrying a grudge. Something to remember in future games. As I recall, Washington is much the same--initially easy to please, but not the forgiving type if you cross him.

Shortly after this, Zara got a little pushy too:

ALC22_170BC_14.jpg


I almost always give in to these resource demands if I'm not about to trade the resource away. You can easily cancel the trade 10 turns later, and you earn a diplomatic bonus for giving in without getting a demerit when you cancel. And it kept him pleased, which meant I was able to get something for nothing from him:

ALC22_170BC_15.jpg


Since I was about to found my southeastern crab city, Fishing was going to come in handy. And I just managed to beat Zara to it--look at what he had lurking in the forest nearby on the turn where I founded my 5th city:

ALC22_170BC_16.jpg


Meanwhile, the barbs finally left their last Worker in a vulnerable spot. The AI sometimes seems to have trouble understanding that some units can move two tiles in one turn.


ALC22_170BC_18.jpg


So that was a total of 4 Workers I captured from the Barbarians--a very welcome, much-needed, and quick addition to my roster of Workers. I also managed to build one this round, bringing my total to 9. I now have enough Workers that I've been able to double them up the way I like to do. Given that I now have 5 cities and am planning on adding 3 in the next round (capturing the 2 barb cities and founding the southern iron city), how many more Workers does everyone think I need?

Finally, at the end of the round, I finished researching Horseback Riding.

ALC22_170BC_19.jpg


Which begs the question, what's next? I selected Metal Casting, which was slaze's suggestion--and an attractive one. The AI tends to make MC a low priority, probably because it's so expensive. That usually makes it good tech trading fodder. Granted, I'm running a risk that the AI will research it and it will turn into a tech-trading dud like Alphabet was, but the settled GSpy should shortly ensure that I'll be able to tell if any of my neighbours decide to go after MC as well, so that risk has been mitigated.

Meanwhile, one of Roosevelt's cities has proven vulnerable to my capital's overwhelming culture (and keep in mind I haven't even finished the Madrassa there yet):

ALC22_170BC_20.jpg


Hmmm... with several riverside tiles, copper, and dye, that city might be worth holding on to if it flips. A pity it doesn't have a good food tile.

Now, Zara is willing to trade for HBR, as follows:

ALC22_170BC_21.jpg


So do I go for this trade, or do I hang on to my military advantage as long as I can? Sailing won't give me any great benefits at the moment--I have trade routes with all the neighbours now. Polytheism, though, could be valuable for going after some of the later religions as some of you have been suggesting, as well as allowing me to pursue the Great Library if that still seems feasible.

Here's a look at the map:

ALC22_170BC_22.jpg


I think the best spot for the southern iron city is 1 SW of the iron. The city will have a lot of tundra, but it will also have deer (though it shares it with the barb city) and crabs. On the other hand, that leaves the fish unclaimed; there's no way to get both the fish and the crabs in the same fat cross, unfortunately.

And relations:

ALC22_170BC_25.jpg


ALC22_170BC_26.jpg


Interesting how Sury and Zara are both at +3, but one is Pleased and the other is Cautious. All part of the AI's personality programming, no doubt.

So that's the round, a short one that once again delivered me to a place with several important decision points. As always, I look forward to your input.
 

Attachments

Now, Zara is willing to trade for HBR, as follows:
So do I go for this trade

Dear god, no! Trading Zara HBR will allow him to crank out Elephants, that's the last thing you want if you want to make use of HBR yourself.

Bh
 
Dear god, no! Trading Zara HBR will allow him to crank out Elephants, that's the last thing you want if you want to make use of HBR yourself.

Bh
Ah, right. See, that's why I pause to post this stuff. I'm not as smart as some of you folks seem to think I am. :crazyeye:
 
I would put the iron city so that it can get the fish. You already have crabs, after all, in your new city this round.

I would also capture the two barb cities ASAP, if you can swing it maintenance-wise. After that, I don't really see any other attractive expansion sites to your south. It would then be time for Construction and the dreaded and feared ELEPULT!

I like MC but I think it's time to start working on the "C" techs. Once you settle the iron and capture the barb cities, currency and code of laws will be very helpful, and construction lets you smash Zara.

I suppose you could also just ignore the barb cities for now. They are mostly cut off from your neighbors, although FDR looks like he has a city to the west of Baghdad and could slide south on you. You might be able to get away with just leaving the barb cities there while you gear up for war with Zara now.
 
Zara could just as well get HBR another way by the time it matters.
 
Are Polytheism and Sailing of Practical use at the moment?
 
It's not a good idea anyhow to trade for two cheap techs. It will just get you closer to WFYABTA.

I think it's best to spend all EPs on one AI at the time starting with Zara and then Roose and lastly Sury and alternate when you can see what they research, that way you can still get info on them all but you get your first usable information earlier. I would try to time a switch when the current target is at the beginning or middle of a tech to ensure minimal loss of information. If ZY is researching HBR with 10 turns left for example it doesn't matter if you switch target and he catches up in EPs to deny you info as long as you remember the info you've already obtained, then switch back after a while. Eventually you'll be able to have info on all of them simultaneously.
 
I'm sure someone in one of the shadow threads will try infiltration from this point in the saves to see how it compares.

I'm not sure how much comparison you can make to two different playings of the game. As your own "shadow" round showed things can happen very differently once the RNG sequence is thrown off.

Dang, but his capital is starting to look awfully attractive. I know some of you were urging me to leave him alone for awhile, but he might be my first military target just for the wonders alone. Aksum now has the T of A and the Great Lighthouse, so it could produce Great Merchants like crazy.

Aksum also has Stonehenge. So lots of prophet and merchant GPPs. And it's got a lot of food to run specialists. Excellent GP farm.

Since I was about to found my southeastern crab city, Fishing was going to come in handy. And I just managed to beat Zara to it--look at what he had lurking in the forest nearby on the turn where I founded my 5th city:

Ugh... Najran is horribly placed. Settling 3 tiles away from a Creative civ's city? :confused: You're going to need either a lot of culture or a large garrison to keep it from flipping to Zara.
Congrats on beating Zara's settler. The only problem is the settler is now heading north. Maybe to found a city SW of Medina's pigs? :mad:

Meanwhile, one of Roosevelt's cities has proven vulnerable to my capital's overwhelming culture (and keep in mind I haven't even finished the Madrassa there yet):
Hmmm... with several riverside tiles, copper, and dye, that city might be worth holding on to if it flips. A pity it doesn't have a good food tile.

I wouldn't keep it. You're going to lose most of its tiles to American culture so it won't be very productive. You don't need the extra city maintenance if you're going to be expanding to better sites in the south.

I think the best spot for the southern iron city is 1 SW of the iron. The city will have a lot of tundra, but it will also have deer (though it shares it with the barb city) and crabs. On the other hand, that leaves the fish unclaimed; there's no way to get both the fish and the crabs in the same fat cross, unfortunately.

SW of the iron doesn't offer great production (one hill plus the iron) and Estruscan is going to need the deer to feed all its miners (5 plains hills). 2E of the iron is a much better site. 4 hills to work in addition to the iron (although one will have to wait until Bio). Fish also has one more food than crabs.



One final point. Why is Baghdad building a settler at size 2?
 
I'd say go Math Currency CoL Construction
and REX you are at 40% slider and have the the ability to use science specialists.. slide down to 10% and use scientists to pull you out.

Then once you have Construction, build up an army and attack
focusing on Priest/prophets for GPP... and production
(researching/trading the religious techs through monotheism+monarchy... to allow you to pop Theology/Divine Right/Philosophy/Paper for the wonderspam)

as for the REXing, I'm going to zag and say put the Iron city 2 N of the Iron... it allows you access to a Floodplain, which when farmed is almost as good as a Crab or a Fish, and the surrounding terrain is much better (unles you are counting the sea tiles for commerce or the possibility of mor trade with Great Lighthouse... but 2N provides riverside tiles, almost as good... and if you take the GLighthouse, you can get a decent number of coastal cities anyways)

In any case make use there is at least on city near that 2N of Iron spot (either Iron City or make it farther north if Iron city is sea food+Iron)
Take the 2 barb cities
and get two more citie on the west coast
one for fish+chips (corn chips)
one for burgers (cow)
It might also be worth getting the Dye City... even pre-Calendar those Riveside dyes are 2f2c

so I'm saying add 6/7 cities (depending on how you place Iron city)

When you do get ready for war, since you have the Info, Zara might not be the one... perhaps hit Roosevelt simply for more land because he hates you anyway... although Zara's Wonder cpital does seem better... with a Grain and 2 seafood, and a free Priest it looks to make a good GPP farm (9 Gpp from Wonders)

In any case, reasses targets at the time of reaching construction.
 
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