ALC Game 29: France/De Gaulle

I've been playing with this leader a lot recently, actually winning some too. Some thoughts.

1. Stonehenge is almost a no-brainer - I typically build it after my first settler at about pop 4. There's not that much food here, so you'll need to chop a bit. I vaguely recall SH going by turn 48ish or later. Because I build few warriors this approach can sometimes get me in barb trouble.

2. I tend to try to leverage the UB "because its there" - I'm trying to explore the game after all. As the OP said representation combo's well with this. This makes the Pyramids a good call with this leader. Its a lot easier to beeline Astro and get your salons up asap than to have to beeline Constitution afterwards.

3. Salons + merc + rep + SoL rocks, but I only ever managed it once. I won that one :D

4. Capital doesn't look that good for wonder production, but if you moved to the coast it would give you a shot a TGL if you don't mind building a lighthouse where there is no fish.
 
I would settle on the southern Ivory. Mining can probably be delayed until after Mysticism if you want to get Henge, if you settled there, since you have a couple of phants to work. Spices are pretty lame anyway, although okay in a bureau cap if there's enough food.


@deckoff

Spoiler :
THat's really very late to be working unimproved tiles in your capitol. At least get out that library to run scientists instead of lame tiles. You can chop or whip it out and still get Oracle easily with this leader. That includes another settler to block Mao in. When I saw his position and the surrounding land, I built a settler first thing, after the worker, and settled SW for the clams - not a bad city that can take on some worker/unit production. Well, something to for you to work on.
 
If you look very closely on it, you can see a flood plains is starting SE of the S-jumbo.
There is a difference between the hidden tile and the plains, i think it must be FP.
That is the reason why i would move onto the southern Jumbo, for SIP the northern part of your BFC would be pretty bad (besides chopping, but it also means you cannot have any strat. ressources there), so i'd def. take the risk.
 
I'm not sure what you mean about the no counter unit. By the time musketeers are around longbows are already protecting AI cities. Musketeers can't take out longbows by themselves.

Yip can happen of course, but when i rush iam ready to sacrifice a handful of units to take a key city fast. Some musks will die to the LBs of course, but they are good enough to get it done.
Also it depends hugely on what AI you meet, let's say there is a warmonger, they might not have a lot of longbows. Basically what i ment is that there is no unit that can attack your stack with good odds, while Knights f.e. do have strong counters.
 
@yoshi: funny, i didnt see that. what i did see was that the tile 2 west 1 south of the settler was a floodplain, which is why i chose to sip. but if i saw what you saw maybe i would have moved.

@lymond:

Spoiler :

well i literally just got bronze working so those tiles couldnt have been improved and a library couldnt have been whipped. i guess thats the weakness of my build order. i dont really mind only having 3 cities early so I didnt mind losing potential sites to mao. was sure war was inevitable so didnt see much point in "peaceful" expansion.

 
To Turn 100. Lets meet the neighbours.

Spoiler :

SIP, went hunting , mining, myst. Built a warrior then settler and SH - settled the marble city first, then the gold. Avar was a barb city and was blocking me in. Teched IW to build some swords, meanwhile bypassing it with a galley to settle Rhiems.

Made the Mids, missed TGL which went on turn 97.

Next play is to tech lit for GL and build more workers.

Capital is frantically building military - I have close borders all over the place and sharing an island with Toku and Ragnar. This ones going to be a bloodbath !! probably mine, but lets see how it goes.

Do I garrison big ? or go on the offensive...

 

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  • Negator as Benginal BC-0375.CivBeyondSwordSave
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Round 1: 4000 BC to 2720 BC (32 turns)

The Capital

I decided to settle in place for the reasons I discussed above. Corn, two riverside elephants, and lots of trees was not enough to get me to spend a turn moving.



The capital has a ton of early wonder production capacity with the trees. After those trees are chopped the capital can work cottages and become a pretty awesome bureaucracy capital. The capital began by building a worker with the corn.



After the worker came out, I started on a warrior for exploration. After the warrior, I began on Stonehenge. I like Stonehenge with De Gaulle's combination of traits so I want it.



You'll notice that I chose to work the flood plain instead of the unimproved elephants. I wasn't quite sure which was optimal. But we have a huge happy cap, and I'm not too worried about missing Stonehenge, so I decided to grow as that will give us more options later. When the camp finished, however, I switched to working that tile, even though it took a turn off of growth. Was this the right move?



After the city grew to population 4, I went back to working the flood plain.



I flirted with the idea of working a plains forest. But again, I'm not worried about losing Stonehenge and I want to grow to get to my already ridiculously large happy cap.

At the end of the turnset, the capital looks like this



Scouting

I did this to demonstrate my scouting pattern. It turned out this wasn't as interesting as I thought it might be. But since I made all the notes to myself I thought I'd show you where I scouted. I've spent that last bit of the turn set healing since I got attacked by a panther.



Neighbors

Well this is just ridiculous. We meet our first neighbor before the game even started (not really, but practically). On turn 3 I meet



What do we know about Mao? He is protective which is going to be a pain, especially if we rush him early. He appears to be extremely close, so a rush is enticing. But protective archers are a real :wallbash:. Mao will definitely declare at pleased. So it's looking like there's going to be some problems in our future.

I sent my second warrior south to see if I could see anything interesting going on with Mao. I was thinking of maybe stealing a worker if the opportunity presented itself, but instead I found this.



Uh oh. What's he coming north for? The land up here is not great. Is there no space to the south? Mao and I both have the same amount of espionage on each other so there's no AIs to the south which means that he must not have room to expand. This is bad news for me as it makes a war declaration more likely. And I was hoping to build wonders for the first 5000 years of this game, :(.

Ah crap, an early rush just went even more out the window.



That city is going to be very expensive to take. No doubt about it.

Worker Micro

I really liked Kossin's worker micro report in his current Hatshepsut game and decided to try and do something similar. Be warned that I am not trying to demonstrate what's optimal, but am instead showing what I did with hopes that the better players will tell me what I should have done differently.

I began with what seemed obvious and moved the worker to the corn and began farming it.



After the farm was finished I moved the worker to the elephants that were right next door and started on a camp.



I wasn't positive on what to do next. But I wanted to get a camp on that second herd of elephants. So I sent the worker north to the elephants.





Here's where things got shady. I probably should have put half of a road down on those elephants, but instead I sent the worker directly to the riverside grassland tile due south of the capital. I want this forest chopped since I can then build something on the tile and because I don't like having forests right next to my capital (or any city for that matter) where the enemy can set up defenses.





Well the worker has a turn to kill until Bronze Working gets in, so I have him build a road for one turn. The way I do this is by clicking build road like I normally would. And then at the end of the same turn I hit the cancel button. If you try to do it at the beginning of next turn the worker often finishes whatever he's doing and wastes a turn. This way I can begin chopping right away next turn, as soon as Bronze Working is in.



I haven't started on the chop yet, as I decided to save the game at the beginning of the turn in case anyone had anything interesting to suggest, like going to farm the flood plain. (Did any of you guys play R. E. Lee Civil War General? It was a really super game. But one of the annoying things about it was that you had to completely finish your turn before you saved. If you saved with troops still yet to move, their turn was sacrificed. Point is, I'm glad Civ let's me save mid turn.)

Techs

Techs went as planned. I researched Hunting first to allow me to improve the elephants. After that I went Mining and Bronze Working. With 13 forests in my capital, Bronze Working was a no brainer tech to shoot for. Also, we need Bronze Working to let us pop Metal Casting with the Oracle.

I stopped the round with Bronze Working and this discovery



We have no copper. So an already unappealing early rush is now pretty much out. I suppose I could research Animal Husbandry to look for horses, but I'm not that inclined to. We have no food that need pastures which would make AH a purely speculative play. Barbs are also not a problem, so getting a strategic resource unit is not necessary for protection.

I look forward to your comments, questions, and answers.

Also, what do you guys think of the write-up being theme based instead of purely chronological? Does it break up the game too much? I found that it made it much easier to demonstrate things like worker micro and city managing and therefore hopefully more helpful for those of you from whom I'm looking to for feedback.
 
Hey Benginal, thanks for playing this demo game!

Why didn't you move the worker 1W in his final (idle) turn, so you are (1) closer to the floodplains, and (2) clear a forest for roading that is not across a bridge and is probably towards an early city (blocker in the west).

I think you should settle a city easy and west to block mao off completely, and prepare for a war declaration soon. his protective won't help him much in your territory... you can take him out with catapults + elephants.
 
Spamming wonders out is big fun and all, but you're going to want to kill Mao. It doesn't look like he has elephants so I suggest heading towards HBR and construction. @ Negator: please hide your screenshots in spoiler tags.
 
[...]


You'll notice that I chose to work the flood plain instead of the unimproved elephants. I wasn't quite sure which was optimal. But we have a huge happy cap, and I'm not too worried about missing Stonehenge, so I decided to grow as that will give us more options later. When the camp finished, however, I switched to working that tile, even though it took a turn off of growth. Was this the right move?



After the city grew to population 4, I went back to working the flood plain.
[...]

Let's see...

1st screenshot:
You have 1 overflow (4 base hammers * 1.5 = 6, so 4+1 * 1.5 = 7)
You're losing out 1H from your Industrious trait because of rounding down. Working the unimproved Ivory would add 3 hammers but still lose 1 to roundoff.
The only valid option would be a 2F1H tile... you'd get 9 hammers instead of 7.
So 2 H vs 1F1C.
Before a granary 1F = 1.15H at size 3 (30H/26F).
I'd take the 2 hammers for this turn but revert back the following turn.

2nd screenshot:
Depends what you want.
More hammers:
7*1.5 = 10.5 -> .5 lost = 20 hammers
More food:
4*1.5 = 6 plus growth same turn
Next turn you can work 2 Ivory (6H)+city tile(1H)+2F1H(1H) = 12H/turn

At this stage I'd probably have taken the food but it's a matter of preference.
 
@ Negator: please hide your screenshots in spoiler tags.

I did, I couldn't remove the thumbnail without deleting the image, which I have done - how do you keep the image without the thumbnail ?

Also, what do you guys think of the write-up being theme based instead of purely chronological?

Works for me

As for city micro I went corn then ivory like you. Then I noticed that the AI was ignoring the ivory and working the floodplain instead. I figured it was right and I was wrong so my next move was to go farm the floodplain. Then I stayed on the east side and chop/developed all the hills over there (3 in all) before going back over to the west side and developing the second ivory. I guess if I'd been paying more attention I would have done the ivory sooner to get the extra commerce.
 
you have ivory, so if you manage by some miracle to hold on him for you to build WE+cats you can take his land with construction.
 
I did, I couldn't remove the thumbnail without deleting the image, which I have done - how do you keep the image without the thumbnail ?

Honestly, I don't know how some of yall put thumbnails in your posts. I was going to check your post to see the tags but you've already removed the pic.

Do you use a hosting site? Grab the url from the site and copy into the "Insert Image" prompt, or you can just use the img tags and paste the url between them.
 
Hey Benginal, thanks for playing this demo game!

My pleasure. Literally, I'm actually having a lot of fun doing these games. I'm glad you like them too.

Why didn't you move the worker 1W in his final (idle) turn, so you are (1) closer to the floodplains, and (2) clear a forest for roading that is not across a bridge and is probably towards an early city (blocker in the west).

You're right about the forest 1 SW of the capital being a better spot to do stuff than the forest 1S for the reasons you said -- the road isn't on the other side of the river and is closer to the floodplains. What I should have done though, is instead of moving the worker from 1E to 1S, is move him through the capital from 1E to 1SW. Then do the same half road on that tile, or just head straight to the flood plain for farming.

I think you should settle a city east and west to block mao off completely, and prepare for a war declaration soon. his protective won't help him much in your territory.

I should definitely settle one east and one west as you said. Where should I settle them though? That's going to be a much tougher choice. I'll put up another post soon with my thoughts on this.

As to his protective not helping in my territory. That's definitely true. Along similar lines. Assuming he declares war really soon, it might be worth it to build the Great Wall and farm some Great Generals since we'll be letting the fight come to us. What do you guys think?

Spamming wonders out is big fun and all, but you're going to want to kill Mao. It doesn't look like he has elephants so I suggest heading towards HBR and construction.

Yeah. As always, I see my plans for massive wonder construction slipping away. We're going to be fighting Mao one way or another. Horseback Riding and Construction make complete sense with the elephants nearby and I'll probably be pursuing this route.

1st screenshot:
You have 1 overflow (4 base hammers * 1.5 = 6, so 4+1 * 1.5 = 7)
You're losing out 1H from your Industrious trait because of rounding down. Working the unimproved Ivory would add 3 hammers but still lose 1 to roundoff.
The only valid option would be a 2F1H tile... you'd get 9 hammers instead of 7.
So 2 H vs 1F1C.
Before a granary 1F = 1.15H at size 3 (30H/26F).
I'd take the 2 hammers for this turn but revert back the following turn.

Drat, I forgot about the rounding thing. I'd never paid attention to it before. And then in your Hatshepsut game I saw you pointing out the lost commerce caused by running the slider at 70% (or whatever it was). I didn't make the jump to hammers I suppose. Thanks for the heads up.

2nd screenshot:
Depends what you want.
More hammers:
7*1.5 = 10.5 -> .5 lost = 20 hammers
More food:
4*1.5 = 6 plus growth same turn
Next turn you can work 2 Ivory (6H)+city tile(1H)+2F1H(1H) = 12H/turn

At this stage I'd probably have taken the food but it's a matter of preference.

Yay! So I wasn't wrong, I just had a different preference! I guess that's an improvement. But yeah, I'll pretend I was going for the hammers to get Stonehenge out one turn earlier.

I did, I couldn't remove the thumbnail without deleting the image, which I have done - how do you keep the image without the thumbnail?

I think if you use this forum's image uploading functionality, there is no way to upload an image without a small spoiler image showing up in the bottom. To post an image the way we do use something like imageshack or picasa (google version) to host your pictures. Then link to them with the "Insert Image" button in this forum.

As for city micro I went corn then ivory like you. Then I noticed that the AI was ignoring the ivory and working the floodplain instead. I figured it was right and I was wrong so my next move was to go farm the floodplain. Then I stayed on the east side and chop/developed all the hills over there (3 in all) before going back over to the west side and developing the second ivory. I guess if I'd been paying more attention I would have done the ivory sooner to get the extra commerce.

The things you want your worker doing in the early game is as much improving and as little walking around as possible. The reason I waited so long to head over to the flood plain is because it was just totally out of the way. Also, a camp takes 4 turns to build while a flood plain farm takes 7 (remember that there's a penalty for improving desert tiles). Finally, just because the computer suggests something, doesn't make it right. The computer will default to liking growth, so beware of that. You can see this when you capture AI cities that have a million farms and not much else.

you have ivory, so if you manage by some miracle to hold on him for you to build WE+cats you can take his land with construction.

Yeah, Construction is the obvious way to go. But as you implied, holding Mao off all the way until Construction is I think going to be impossible. I hate to do it, but archery might be a necessary tech. I'll post more on this soon.
 
@Benginal

I played to T124 (225AD), I don't want to spoil you much, but the construction is good way to go and archery I teched too pretty soonish.

rest in spoiler

Spoiler :


I think I played the beginning the same way you did, except after BW i teched AH to check horses and then I went for Oracle.

Settled gold city as 2nd and Marble city as 3rd, to the north I settled another marginal city which can later serve as Moai, just for blocking land.

I made there a mistake...in fact series of mistakes.
1st mistake - I tried Stonehenge, which bring me 28 gold
2nd mistake - I tried for Oracle at point where it was away (what silly I was!).
3rd mistake - since we are Industrious and I have nothing better to do I put forests (a lot of!) into Pyramids - well which bring me around 400 gold

on purpose I made ToA in capital and marble city which netted me around 400 gold too.

I delayed pottery after construction btw so my workers didn't have much to do.
Another mistake is I didn't generate any GP yet :-( big big shame, maybe I should play more slowly

but everything was to my good afterall. The failgold allowed me to stay for a loooong time on 100% slider which netted me construction, hbr (in this order), somewhere down the road aesth.
After construction I quickly built army of cats while teching HBR.

Which brings us to T105 (actually 1 turn sooner, but didn't take SS) where I got dowed by Mao, by this stack

Spoiler :


I battled it a bit on defense and after wiping his stack I went on offense, after 3 cities I took for forming reinforcements and netting Monarchy, sailing and I think meditation as reward.
The plan is to DoW again in 10T to finish him completely.
As bonus I got Great Lighthouse ;-).

Spoiler :




I hope you will enjoy the game, since I think it IS pretty tough map.
and as usual I hope someone will read my report after all :-D
 
I don't see a reason to plan an early war...no benefits in doing that, you need to get up a marble and a gold/clam city, build some wonders and cottages, and try to make *friends* with Mao.
Let him build stuff, and then when you got yours done, you can take his...
 
be patient beginal - dont' tech archery
 
I hope you will enjoy the game, since I think it IS pretty tough map. and as usual I hope someone will read my report after all :-D

I'm glad to hear the game is a little tough as it will keep it interesting. I hope that with the now famous hive mind we should be able to win this one. I'll go back and read your post in a little bit when I think I'm safely past any spoilers.

I don't see a reason to plan an early war...no benefits in doing that.

I am definitely not planning on early war, but I think the war is going to come to me, so I'm preparing for an early war, ;). I think there are definitely benefits to any early war. Mao's capital, no enemy cities that close to my capital to worry about, get some early high experience units to unlock the Heroic Epic and get some Great Generals.

you need to get up a marble and a gold/clam city, build some wonders and cottages, and try to make *friends* with Mao.

That's an interesting choice of city. There don't seem to by any good second cities directly nearby. I'm not a huge fan of gold, clam since I don't have fishing yet and the gold is on a desert hill. Making friends with Mao is going to be hard since neither of us is going to found a religion, I can't run State Property for a long time, we're going to have border problems really early, sigh. I'd like to just be friends with him and build my wonders, but I'm feeling like it's going to be impossible.

Eastern City



Already connected to trade route, can work the corn, can work plains cottages for the capital, gets marble, doesn't work any ocean tiles, won't overlap BFC with Shanghai, coastal



Already connected to trade route, can work the corn, can work plains cottages for the capital, gets marble, doesn't work any ocean tiles, can work both the flood plains (assuming we get Stonehenge)



Gets marble right away, coastal, can work both the flood plains (assuming we get Stonehenge)



Coastal, plains hill hammer bonus, easier to defend, can work both the flood plains (assuming we get Stonehenge)

Western City



Lots of river tiles, easier to defend, can work cottages for the capital, coastal



Coastal, can work clams



Plains hill hammer bonus, easier to defend, gets the northern flood plains

Northern City

I'd rather choke Mao and do some more scouting, before planning a northern city. However, Yoshi recommended the clam, gold site. So if others of you have thoughts on a northern site let me know.

Questions

  1. Where do I settle?
  2. What order do I settle in?
  3. How soon should I settle them?
 
the eastern city I took the yellow one, 1W of marble, it is 1 off coast, but I planned to help with at least 1 grass cottage for capital, get 2 FPs, plenty of ivory and marble, so mighty production if you farm both FP.

I settled the gold on the GH, gets 2 FPs for farms, gold (in 1st ring you can get farm and gold) and GH to north and on east can share hills with capital.

the south west clams didnt looked like worth the effort.

I went with gold first, marble second.

I started 1st settler on size 3 if I remember correctly. Am not sure if I let capital grow a bit before 2nd settler, there was a bit lag with improvements so bigger size didn't meant I would work improved tiles.
 
not a fan of gold! wow! it does wonders for your early research

Anyway, after Henge, you need to expand fairly aggressively to bloc Mao from coming further north - you will really nerf him considerable given this map and make him easy pickings later.

1) Settle on the Marble and farm it up for pure production - it can take on worker/settler/unit production fairly quick while the cap wonder whores.
2) The SW clams city is actually quite nice. It can work some cottaged FPs and still have very very nice production. Don't waste that food by settling 1off. Later chain irrigation and workshops/watermills will make this a very nice city.
3) Chop the forest first and then settle 1E of the grasshill 1S of the gold. This city can work the gold for a while.
4) Clam city to the NW will have some decent food depending on where the barb city pops up, if it does.

the south west clams didnt looked like worth the effort.

????


as a sidenote - although I rarely do so - I started my settler at size 1 this game. Mao is just too close...It paid off (however, I settled the cap on the SW jumbos and basically block Mao in with the 1st city I settled on the SW clams. Interestingly, that same Mao city he settled just south of the cap cultured flipped to me very quickly)

Spoiler :
Mao is dead (got GLH), Toku is my best buddy, and I just took Ragnar's capital
 
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