ALC Game 29: France/De Gaulle
- Thread starter Benginal
- Start date
Good analysis of the city site. I really like the ability to work the capital's cottages until later in the game, so I might well pick this city site. I'll still have to think about it. The lack of coastal is annoying, but not really bad since there's no fish anywhere in site. The other reason it's annoying was introduced to me by Rusten in is his last online game where he said always get a workboat out on Fractal map as you never know what you might find. And obviously, only a coastal city can get a workboat out.
This city is legit too. I don't like it as a long term city site, but as I look around I don't really like any city sites long term. So I'm thinking we're going to just need to go get some land. I don't think I'll settle this city in the upcoming turnset, but I'll keep it in the back of my mind.
Hmm, given the lack of food in our vicinity, I think it probably is worth the effort. It also makes for a great blocking city. The city can work a clam, two flood plains, 1 plains hill, and 2 grassland hills. This will allow for a pretty solid base of whip, work on hills to let happiness come back, whip, work hills, repeat. Also, we can get out a work boat.
Interesting that you chose this instead of blocking. I'm a huge fan of blocking. And it doesn't look like we have any nearby AIs to north. Or if there are, they'll be on the other side of a jungle, so no rush to get up there.
This sounds good. I think this is one of those games where it's worth it to crank out some early settlers for the land grab since it's going to be tight. Also, I've noticed you're very against working unimproved tiles,
. Even though the tile might not be improved, it's sometimes worth the extra maintenance of the extra citizen to work a tile, especially a forested plains tile. So if I'm not whipping, I usually grow the city, even onto unimproved tiles. My bad for a poorly written sentence. What I was saying is that I'm not a fan of that city site up there. Either way, if you settle the city south or north of the gold, it's not going to have great early food and it's not going to box in Mao so it's not really serving either of my two main purposes. The third main purpose of my early cities is to get some commerce, so I think that the gold city will be good and everything, but that it can wait a couple dozen turns to be settled.
Yeah, I do need to expand to block off Mao, and this is way more important to me than getting that gold site up.
1) I've decided I'll either settle on the gold or 1W of it. I'll have to think about it more, but if you guys have any more thoughts on which city say so soon.
2) Yupyup, see above for what I plan to do with it early game.
3) It does look like a pretty decent city, but as I said earlier, it will probably remained unsettled until the next turnset.
4) I'm getting my warrior up there as we speak to have a look around at the possibilities for my northern city.
This is a great idea. I might do that. I can put the chop into the settler. Then finish building Stonehenge.
Techs
I think the tech path is still pretty straightforward. I'll go Polytheism -> Priesthood -> Pottery -> Metal Casting (Oracle). I'll stop the round there so we can talk more about how to proceed, but for now I think that still looks good. It's been recommended that I try to squeeze Animal Husbandry in there somewhere. I'm still skeptical about the benefits of doing so. I think we can probably put it in after Pottery and still be okay. I also want to get fishing for exploring work boats and working clams. Comments?
City Sites
This was discussed at length in the previous post. But I'm thinking of heading southwest to the clam site. While I wait for fishing to get online I can work the hills and flood plains. The second city will go either on the marble or 1W of it, I haven't decided yet. It would be silly to settle one off the coast and then build the Great Lighthouse, but I'm thinking I might skip that this game since I just built it. But with all this water around and an industrious leader it seems almost criminal not to build it, shrug. In my recent games the Great Lighthouse has been lasting until the ADs, so I'm not really in a rush to build it. Third city will be the gold and clam site to the north. I might end up wasting the northern most flood plain, so we'll see.
Capital Builds
I'm currently at size 4 (grow in 4 turns). I can chop a forest in 3 turns. I have a ton of forests to chop. So what should I do. Things I'd like to get soon include 2 settlers, 3 or 4 workers (they might not be useful right away, but there's jungle up north), Stonehenge, the Oracle, and some defenders.
I think a settler might come first. The city can go South and work some unimproved flood plains (which are kind of like improved riverside grassland). Then I'll finish Stonehenge. After that will come worker, warrior, settler, Oracle. This leaves me severely short on workers, sigh. Also, I think I will able to get this all out with chops. I have so many forests and so many things I'd like to build I think I might just chop with impunity for the next few turns.
I'm worried about chopping and whipping poorly, but I'll do my best. I don't want to plan out everything now super strictly. But if any of you have some suggestions on building more workers, etc. Or have some tips you'd like to share on cool ways to chop or whip don't hesitate to let me know.
Great Wall
I'd like it. But I don't need it and Mao might build it for me. Thoughts?
I think the tech path is still pretty straightforward. I'll go Polytheism -> Priesthood -> Pottery -> Metal Casting (Oracle). I'll stop the round there so we can talk more about how to proceed, but for now I think that still looks good. It's been recommended that I try to squeeze Animal Husbandry in there somewhere. I'm still skeptical about the benefits of doing so. I think we can probably put it in after Pottery and still be okay. I also want to get fishing for exploring work boats and working clams. Comments?
City Sites
This was discussed at length in the previous post. But I'm thinking of heading southwest to the clam site. While I wait for fishing to get online I can work the hills and flood plains. The second city will go either on the marble or 1W of it, I haven't decided yet. It would be silly to settle one off the coast and then build the Great Lighthouse, but I'm thinking I might skip that this game since I just built it. But with all this water around and an industrious leader it seems almost criminal not to build it, shrug. In my recent games the Great Lighthouse has been lasting until the ADs, so I'm not really in a rush to build it. Third city will be the gold and clam site to the north. I might end up wasting the northern most flood plain, so we'll see.
Capital Builds
I'm currently at size 4 (grow in 4 turns). I can chop a forest in 3 turns. I have a ton of forests to chop. So what should I do. Things I'd like to get soon include 2 settlers, 3 or 4 workers (they might not be useful right away, but there's jungle up north), Stonehenge, the Oracle, and some defenders.
I think a settler might come first. The city can go South and work some unimproved flood plains (which are kind of like improved riverside grassland). Then I'll finish Stonehenge. After that will come worker, warrior, settler, Oracle. This leaves me severely short on workers, sigh. Also, I think I will able to get this all out with chops. I have so many forests and so many things I'd like to build I think I might just chop with impunity for the next few turns.
I'm worried about chopping and whipping poorly, but I'll do my best. I don't want to plan out everything now super strictly. But if any of you have some suggestions on building more workers, etc. Or have some tips you'd like to share on cool ways to chop or whip don't hesitate to let me know.
Great Wall
I'd like it. But I don't need it and Mao might build it for me. Thoughts?
vranasm
Deity
well yep i am strongly against unimproved tiles... habbit which I took from lymond ;-)
the only exception worth is forested plains hill tile since it's 3 hammers and that is equivalent of mined desert hill = so-so, that's why I don't like to work on grassland nonriverside cottages - low tile yields are uninspiring for me ;-)
but not saying I have all the time everything improved :-D but generally when I look at someone's save (even mine) I look first at overall improvements level
the only exception worth is forested plains hill tile since it's 3 hammers and that is equivalent of mined desert hill = so-so, that's why I don't like to work on grassland nonriverside cottages - low tile yields are uninspiring for me ;-)
but not saying I have all the time everything improved :-D but generally when I look at someone's save (even mine) I look first at overall improvements level
Round 2: 2720 BC to 1760 BC (24 turns)
EDIT: Reading through this post now, the thematic thing makes the post kind of disjointed. I apologize. I'll probably return to more standard write-ups for the rest of the game.
Paris
I decided to follow vicawoo's advice and insert a settler right away.
I decided to do this since I was still pretty confident that we could finish Stonehenge, but I was less confident that we'd be able to contain Mao and I wanted to make sure that he didn't find a way to escape.
With its flood plain stolen, Paris started working a hammer heavy tile to finish Stonehenge.
Check out the way Stonehenge finishes and I grow on the same turn. This would give me an extra citizen to have when producing my worker, which I was planning on building next.
Awesome blossom! But more workers were needed for chopping, laying down cottages, building roads, and other sorts of improvements.
To get it out a little faster, I decided on taking the flood plain back from Orleans.
The worker finished and I had one turn left until Priesthood finished and I could start on the Oracle, so I decided that one turn warrior made a lot of sense.
I currently had two warriors for my whole empire, and one of them was off exploring near Japan. So I decided building another was a prudent idea.
The warrior finished and I moved into production mode. Let's get that Oracle finished. (Don't worry Kossin, Orleans took the flood plain back)
Awesome Possum!
This thematic thing is confusing. Scroll down to "Research" if you want to see me selecting Metal Casting for free.
What should I build in the capital now? These are my options but I really have no idea what to build. Notice I haven't yet revolted to Slavery so I should probably do that sometime.
I have a forge in as a placeholder.
Orleans
And in Paris, Orleans was born.
And check it out, because of my road I can settle Orleans in one turn, yay! Orleans took the currently unfinished flood plain farm and began working on a
worker? The only other sensible option was a warrior, but barbarians weren't a major problem yet. I was also pretty confident that I would be able to hold off Mao until I had better units. Plus, as soon as Fishing finished I was going to start on a workboat anyway.
I switched to working the forested hill to get the workboat out fast since that clam was going to be the second best tile in the empire as soon as it got improved.
The turnset ended with the workboat finishing and me going back to building the worker, this time with the clam tile.
Worker Actions
This round is going to get less precise since there are more worker actions and whatnot, but I'll do my best to describe what I do.
I began by chopping where the worker started this turnset. The chop went into the settler. I then moved the worker over to the forest 1SW of the capital and started on a road.
Finishing the road would allow the settler to get all the way down to the city site I had planned in one turn and get settled one turn earlier, etc. The worker continued west and began farming the flood plain. I like the idea of this farm because a flood plain farm is a pretty good thing for early growth and both cities can share it.
I'll very likely cottage over it soon, but for now I thought the farm would be a good idea. It might have been better to just keep chopping, but I'm not sure.
After the farm was finished, I moved the worker south to begin on the road that would connect Paris and Orleans. This early trade route is vital in the beginning of the game and I wanted it up right away.
The road finished and I moved the worker one to the east. He would chop that forest into the Oracle in the capital and then mine the hill. This was the worker action I was most unsure of. What should I have done with the worker in that case?
My second worker finished in Paris and I sent him to road the corn.
I did this not for connecting the corn (note it was already connected), but for the ability to get my settler out East faster in case it came down to a foot race between Mao and me.
Worker 1 continued on his mine while worker 2 (who was working on the corn road) went 1 south to chop that tree into the Oracle.
The two workers are now working on a cottage due south of the capital and a farm on the western floodplain.
Research
After polytheism came in, I though about what to do. The options as I saw them were Fishing, to build workboats, Animal Husbandry, to look for horses, or Pottery, to unlock Metal Casting and start building cottages.
I decided on fishing as I could then start on the clams in the southwest city as soon as possible. I decided against Animal Husbandry since I wasn't going to follow a blind dream for Horses. I thought about pottery but I wasn't going to be building cottages since I had some farms and mines to get up and I would have time to finish it before finishing the Oracle.
After Fishing came Priesthood to allow the building of the Oracle. As I was building the Oracle I researched Pottery so that I could pop Metal Casting with the Oracle.
Yay. Well this is where I ended the turn set, but I have Animal Husbandry in as a place holder.
Mao
Shooooot. This is where the thematic story telling doesn't work so well. Luckily you can still see what's going on in my other cities.
Come on now barb archer, hold them off.
Come on little guy, stay strong.
Ah crap.
Hopefully Mao settles someplace I like.
Well that will do just fine. Thanks Mao! I'm pretty sure I won't even have to take it violently as it should culture flip shortly.
Northern Neighboring Nutcases
My exploring warrior found this crazy guy soon after the turnset began.
This is a truly worrisome development. This guy builds large stacks and will march all over the world to kill me. He'll have to be dealt with, maybe with my elephants and catapults.
The next leader was much better. He already had writing, so we opened borders right away. Juuuuust kidding.
Yeah, I have no friends.
Well I think this is one of those games where I'm going to be going it alone. Luckily I've got all you guys to help!
Some Maps
China got jipped. And he's going to take it out on me, sigh.
I went to get up to that copper city on the west coast, but I'll have to go through a barb city to get there. Or maybe a galley around the west coast of our continent.
Alright. Let's hear your comments, criticisms, and commendations.
EDIT: Reading through this post now, the thematic thing makes the post kind of disjointed. I apologize. I'll probably return to more standard write-ups for the rest of the game.
Paris
I decided to follow vicawoo's advice and insert a settler right away.
I decided to do this since I was still pretty confident that we could finish Stonehenge, but I was less confident that we'd be able to contain Mao and I wanted to make sure that he didn't find a way to escape.
With its flood plain stolen, Paris started working a hammer heavy tile to finish Stonehenge.
Check out the way Stonehenge finishes and I grow on the same turn. This would give me an extra citizen to have when producing my worker, which I was planning on building next.
Awesome blossom! But more workers were needed for chopping, laying down cottages, building roads, and other sorts of improvements.
To get it out a little faster, I decided on taking the flood plain back from Orleans.
The worker finished and I had one turn left until Priesthood finished and I could start on the Oracle, so I decided that one turn warrior made a lot of sense.
I currently had two warriors for my whole empire, and one of them was off exploring near Japan. So I decided building another was a prudent idea.
The warrior finished and I moved into production mode. Let's get that Oracle finished. (Don't worry Kossin, Orleans took the flood plain back)
Awesome Possum!
This thematic thing is confusing. Scroll down to "Research" if you want to see me selecting Metal Casting for free.
What should I build in the capital now? These are my options but I really have no idea what to build. Notice I haven't yet revolted to Slavery so I should probably do that sometime.
I have a forge in as a placeholder.
Orleans
And in Paris, Orleans was born.
And check it out, because of my road I can settle Orleans in one turn, yay! Orleans took the currently unfinished flood plain farm and began working on a
worker? The only other sensible option was a warrior, but barbarians weren't a major problem yet. I was also pretty confident that I would be able to hold off Mao until I had better units. Plus, as soon as Fishing finished I was going to start on a workboat anyway.
I switched to working the forested hill to get the workboat out fast since that clam was going to be the second best tile in the empire as soon as it got improved.
The turnset ended with the workboat finishing and me going back to building the worker, this time with the clam tile.
Worker Actions
This round is going to get less precise since there are more worker actions and whatnot, but I'll do my best to describe what I do.
I began by chopping where the worker started this turnset. The chop went into the settler. I then moved the worker over to the forest 1SW of the capital and started on a road.
Finishing the road would allow the settler to get all the way down to the city site I had planned in one turn and get settled one turn earlier, etc. The worker continued west and began farming the flood plain. I like the idea of this farm because a flood plain farm is a pretty good thing for early growth and both cities can share it.
I'll very likely cottage over it soon, but for now I thought the farm would be a good idea. It might have been better to just keep chopping, but I'm not sure.
After the farm was finished, I moved the worker south to begin on the road that would connect Paris and Orleans. This early trade route is vital in the beginning of the game and I wanted it up right away.
The road finished and I moved the worker one to the east. He would chop that forest into the Oracle in the capital and then mine the hill. This was the worker action I was most unsure of. What should I have done with the worker in that case?
My second worker finished in Paris and I sent him to road the corn.
I did this not for connecting the corn (note it was already connected), but for the ability to get my settler out East faster in case it came down to a foot race between Mao and me.
Worker 1 continued on his mine while worker 2 (who was working on the corn road) went 1 south to chop that tree into the Oracle.
The two workers are now working on a cottage due south of the capital and a farm on the western floodplain.
Research
After polytheism came in, I though about what to do. The options as I saw them were Fishing, to build workboats, Animal Husbandry, to look for horses, or Pottery, to unlock Metal Casting and start building cottages.
I decided on fishing as I could then start on the clams in the southwest city as soon as possible. I decided against Animal Husbandry since I wasn't going to follow a blind dream for Horses. I thought about pottery but I wasn't going to be building cottages since I had some farms and mines to get up and I would have time to finish it before finishing the Oracle.
After Fishing came Priesthood to allow the building of the Oracle. As I was building the Oracle I researched Pottery so that I could pop Metal Casting with the Oracle.
Yay. Well this is where I ended the turn set, but I have Animal Husbandry in as a place holder.
Mao
Shooooot. This is where the thematic story telling doesn't work so well. Luckily you can still see what's going on in my other cities.
Come on now barb archer, hold them off.
Come on little guy, stay strong.
Ah crap.
Hopefully Mao settles someplace I like.
Well that will do just fine. Thanks Mao! I'm pretty sure I won't even have to take it violently as it should culture flip shortly.
Northern Neighboring Nutcases
My exploring warrior found this crazy guy soon after the turnset began.
This is a truly worrisome development. This guy builds large stacks and will march all over the world to kill me. He'll have to be dealt with, maybe with my elephants and catapults.
The next leader was much better. He already had writing, so we opened borders right away. Juuuuust kidding.
Yeah, I have no friends.
Well I think this is one of those games where I'm going to be going it alone. Luckily I've got all you guys to help!
Some Maps
China got jipped. And he's going to take it out on me, sigh.
I went to get up to that copper city on the west coast, but I'll have to go through a barb city to get there. Or maybe a galley around the west coast of our continent.
Alright. Let's hear your comments, criticisms, and commendations.
dragomaster
Warlord
vranasm
Deity
Have you tried civ 5
200 hours in and not continuing... wasn't worth the effort
- Joined
- Mar 11, 2008
- Messages
- 25,121
wow! 200hour, vranasm....I think I gave it maybe 30 at most. Never even finished a game...ugh.
Benginal - I would have built the 3rd settler before Oracle - or while in process. But your are right, Mao basically did the work for you and that city will most certainly flip. It's also the spot I recommended.
You appear to have room for 2 more nearby cities, plus the Barb city which will have good food, so that makes 6 which is good. I think might have trouble getting a city past that location of the barb city in time but you could try. I would just focus mainly on the immediate area and the barb city and then expand by force - Mao first, of course. Hopefully, Mao will build something shiny for you.
Benginal - I would have built the 3rd settler before Oracle - or while in process. But your are right, Mao basically did the work for you and that city will most certainly flip. It's also the spot I recommended.
You appear to have room for 2 more nearby cities, plus the Barb city which will have good food, so that makes 6 which is good. I think might have trouble getting a city past that location of the barb city in time but you could try. I would just focus mainly on the immediate area and the barb city and then expand by force - Mao first, of course. Hopefully, Mao will build something shiny for you.
Mec AntiKythera
King
- Joined
- Sep 24, 2010
- Messages
- 980
Interesting game, difficult decisions to make. I do like the write up a lot, it threw me off for half a second but I see the value in isolating the themes instead of a pure chronological report. I encourage you to finish the game this way, the amount of detail included is fantastic.
With Mao that close it seems essential to maximize early production. If you want the Oracle, which helps get the forges for production, then I would seriously consider settling on the marble. I think that would be my next city. Granted, you are Industrious and can chop the Oracle, but hammers are hammers and chopping forge, barrack and units instead of only wonders would be a bonus. Perhaps a settler chop would be wise come to think of it. A protective neighbor that close asks for a flying start.
After that I would either go for the clams SW (yellow option, hate leaving seafood unattended), or the Golden Clam up NW. That is pretty close to what lymond is suggesting, different preference on the gold city but I haven't mapped it out completely. The more I look at it the more I lean to settling south of the gold as others have offered and then going banana clam up north later.
As to when to settle, certainly getting marble before building the Oracle makes sense so I would want one settler rather quickly. You would also need a road to the river to make it available in Paris.
Oops, you posted a new round thus making my ideas completely outdated and irrelevant. Time is a harsh and unforgiving master. So go ahead and ignore the above while I read the new developments and write a response to that. I should have that done shortly after you put up the next round. That's what I get for posting in the last game while you had already started this one. Sorry about that, poor form there, I do appreciate you taking time to respond there though, very kind of you.
With Mao that close it seems essential to maximize early production. If you want the Oracle, which helps get the forges for production, then I would seriously consider settling on the marble. I think that would be my next city. Granted, you are Industrious and can chop the Oracle, but hammers are hammers and chopping forge, barrack and units instead of only wonders would be a bonus. Perhaps a settler chop would be wise come to think of it. A protective neighbor that close asks for a flying start.
After that I would either go for the clams SW (yellow option, hate leaving seafood unattended), or the Golden Clam up NW. That is pretty close to what lymond is suggesting, different preference on the gold city but I haven't mapped it out completely. The more I look at it the more I lean to settling south of the gold as others have offered and then going banana clam up north later.
As to when to settle, certainly getting marble before building the Oracle makes sense so I would want one settler rather quickly. You would also need a road to the river to make it available in Paris.
Oops, you posted a new round thus making my ideas completely outdated and irrelevant. Time is a harsh and unforgiving master. So go ahead and ignore the above while I read the new developments and write a response to that. I should have that done shortly after you put up the next round. That's what I get for posting in the last game while you had already started this one. Sorry about that, poor form there, I do appreciate you taking time to respond there though, very kind of you.
Techs
Here's a look at our current technology situation.
How does this tech path look? Would you guys switch the order or add or subtract any technologies?
Espionage
I'm planning on taking out Mao early, so it seems silly to keep sending EP his way. Should I focus them on Ragnar, Tokugawa, or split my points between the two?
Chinese Cities
I like the placement of both of the cities I can see. Shanghai has the potential to be an awesome military pump and Guangzhou is where we were considering putting our own city anyway. Beijing I can't be sure about, but the odds are pretty high that it's decent.
New Cities
Here are all the places I'd consider settling cities. It's definitely possible, and probably superior, to settle two cities as opposed to one. If you have arguments for a city I didn't consider please say so.
Which (two) cities do you like? I'm partial to Red and Purple myself, but I'm open to suggestions.
Cottages?
Paris looks like a prime spot for putting down a bunch of riverside cottages and getting a pretty powerful cottage city early in the game. On the other hand, planning an early war makes cottages less convenient since I likely won't be working them as I'll be favoring production. Also, I'm hoping to get the Pyramids, which would let us run Representation and make specialists even better. So I'm down for either. What do you guys think?
To clarify, I'm not going to cottage spam outside of Paris. I rarely do. Our non-Parisian cities are going to be working farms, mines, and running specialists. My question is specifically about Paris. Should I farm it up or cottage it up?
Here's a look at our current technology situation.
- Animal Husbandry: I think I'm going to stick with this as next my next tech. It would be lovely to know if I had horses and I'm planning on a Catapult & Elephant war against Mao, so AH will have to be researched sometime.
- Sailing: This will allow the building of a lighthouse in Orleans (which is required for the Great Lighthouse).
- Masonry: The other tech we need to build the Great Lighthouse. This would also allow the building of the Pyramids in Paris. The Great Wall has already been built, but it doesn't look like we're going to need it.
- Writing: This will give us the ability to get some libraries and scientists early. An early great scientist is going to be useful no matter what we end up doing in terms of economy. Writing is also an important prerequisite technology.
- Mathematics: I hardly ever research this myself, so it might be nice to do something different. I'm attracted to Maths early since I have many trees to chop and I want the hammer bonus. Also, I can then try to build the Hanging Gardens for the health and the Great Engineer points.
- Construction: This tech is necessary for our war as it lets us build both catapults and Elephants.
- Horseback Riding: The other tech for Elephants. It also opens up Horse Archers if we get horses in our borders.
How does this tech path look? Would you guys switch the order or add or subtract any technologies?
Espionage
I'm planning on taking out Mao early, so it seems silly to keep sending EP his way. Should I focus them on Ragnar, Tokugawa, or split my points between the two?
Chinese Cities
I like the placement of both of the cities I can see. Shanghai has the potential to be an awesome military pump and Guangzhou is where we were considering putting our own city anyway. Beijing I can't be sure about, but the odds are pretty high that it's decent.
New Cities
Here are all the places I'd consider settling cities. It's definitely possible, and probably superior, to settle two cities as opposed to one. If you have arguments for a city I didn't consider please say so.
Which (two) cities do you like? I'm partial to Red and Purple myself, but I'm open to suggestions.
Cottages?
Paris looks like a prime spot for putting down a bunch of riverside cottages and getting a pretty powerful cottage city early in the game. On the other hand, planning an early war makes cottages less convenient since I likely won't be working them as I'll be favoring production. Also, I'm hoping to get the Pyramids, which would let us run Representation and make specialists even better. So I'm down for either. What do you guys think?
To clarify, I'm not going to cottage spam outside of Paris. I rarely do. Our non-Parisian cities are going to be working farms, mines, and running specialists. My question is specifically about Paris. Should I farm it up or cottage it up?
Do you know where rags and toku are? Focus your spy points on whoever is closer. I know I already mentioned this but I think it bears repeating: you're crazy if you try to wonderwhore with these neighbors. TGL and 'mids are nice, but why would you even bother with hanging gardens? I vote troop spam so you can take these guys out. You know with the warmonger respect they're all going to have an immediate +3-6 with each other leaving you the ugly duckling. Chop those forests and go kill someone.
vranasm
Deity
I agree with Gwynnja... forget wonders. It's won't click this game
I think you should really streamline the techs. You didn't get that marble spot, so I don't see reason for masonry before math+constr and hbr
I would not cottage paris, you will need the whip, so better plan some farms for regrowth
red is great since you need the gold for teching and offers production with some fp farms and grass hills
I am not sure with the northern blocker, in my shadow i made some (very bad one) and it just sit there whole time, being more drag then help. But after IW there could be reasonable city.
Dunno if you will flip the marble city before attacking, if yes that would be great, but would not count with it.
I think you should really streamline the techs. You didn't get that marble spot, so I don't see reason for masonry before math+constr and hbr
I would not cottage paris, you will need the whip, so better plan some farms for regrowth
red is great since you need the gold for teching and offers production with some fp farms and grass hills
I am not sure with the northern blocker, in my shadow i made some (very bad one) and it just sit there whole time, being more drag then help. But after IW there could be reasonable city.
Dunno if you will flip the marble city before attacking, if yes that would be great, but would not count with it.
Ghpstage
Deity
Wonders aren't that bad a move, the NW is a 1 tile passage and a blocking/canal city is a valid move considering the land, we also have marble if you wanted it and could had blocked off an island (or perhaps several).
I actually did try this up to 1090AD
I actually did try this up to 1090AD
Spoiler :
It seems like the trend of my ALCs might be me wanting to build a lot of wonders and you guys telling me not to. But before I give in, hear me out. I don't think I'm going to need a huge a force to take out Mao, he's got 3 cities and, while he is protective, half a dozen catapults and some elephants should be able to get all of his cities and the barb one, which would give us 8 cities plus maybe a couple in the jungle. This suggests that building a large army might not be the best thing, and even if it is slightly better it's not as much fun, 
. Also, to answer Gwynnja's question, Toku and Ragnar are way up north. This is another reason that war against them is unappealing. It's definitely possible that they'll expand closer, so we can re-evaluate our war decisions then. But for now, I'm planning on some wonder building.
As to Paris's cottages or specialists, I'm still undecided. I think I'm inclined to use the forests and the whip as our production sources in the beginning game and grow it really big to run a lot of specialists, using farms. This is me ditching the cottages idea, so if you think I should stick with that now, say so soon.
. Also, to answer Gwynnja's question, Toku and Ragnar are way up north. This is another reason that war against them is unappealing. It's definitely possible that they'll expand closer, so we can re-evaluate our war decisions then. But for now, I'm planning on some wonder building.As to Paris's cottages or specialists, I'm still undecided. I think I'm inclined to use the forests and the whip as our production sources in the beginning game and grow it really big to run a lot of specialists, using farms. This is me ditching the cottages idea, so if you think I should stick with that now, say so soon.
Mec AntiKythera
King
- Joined
- Sep 24, 2010
- Messages
- 980
Some nice building done there, good work.
First, about wonders, I think your argument for building them is pretty solid. You are industrious and that makes it relatively quick and nothing about the map indicates that it would be unwise to do so since Ragnar and Toku are at a safe distance and Mao is contained. I say go for it. The GLH looks fantastic with all those coastal cities, though HG doesn't strike me as necessary so I wouldn't prioritize it. When you get marble the Parthenon and GL will go up in no time, they also mesh well with a specialist heavy approach, which by the way is an argument for farming Paris but that's another subject. The Pyramids, hmm, I don't know. They certainly help capitalize on the specialists but are so costly, I guess you could. I'm undecided about that one. If there is an opportunity okay, but I wouldn't neglect everything to get it built.
About cities, you are probably right about the Chinese marble city flipping to you, that is a mighty fine gesture of them to put down the foundations for your ornamental cladding city, and on a fine spot. Just remember to say thank you as you accept it.
As for your city sites, I like Green and Red+1W (1S of Gold). Red may be as good or better than my spot but the resulting overlap seems excessive to me, I think you have sufficient overlap if you move it west one tile.
You asked about orders for your workers. I would like to see another mine by Orleans, some roads to future cities, yours and Mao's, and some pre-chopped forests. Which is the most pressing is hard to judge.
The tech order seems good, I might consider doing Writing and Math before Masonry if that wouldn't endanger the GLH, that's something I can't comment about in BTS on this level. AH is good to have before doing extensive settling so doing that next makes some sense, good plan.
First, about wonders, I think your argument for building them is pretty solid. You are industrious and that makes it relatively quick and nothing about the map indicates that it would be unwise to do so since Ragnar and Toku are at a safe distance and Mao is contained. I say go for it. The GLH looks fantastic with all those coastal cities, though HG doesn't strike me as necessary so I wouldn't prioritize it. When you get marble the Parthenon and GL will go up in no time, they also mesh well with a specialist heavy approach, which by the way is an argument for farming Paris but that's another subject. The Pyramids, hmm, I don't know. They certainly help capitalize on the specialists but are so costly, I guess you could. I'm undecided about that one. If there is an opportunity okay, but I wouldn't neglect everything to get it built.
About cities, you are probably right about the Chinese marble city flipping to you, that is a mighty fine gesture of them to put down the foundations for your ornamental cladding city, and on a fine spot. Just remember to say thank you as you accept it.
As for your city sites, I like Green and Red+1W (1S of Gold). Red may be as good or better than my spot but the resulting overlap seems excessive to me, I think you have sufficient overlap if you move it west one tile.
You asked about orders for your workers. I would like to see another mine by Orleans, some roads to future cities, yours and Mao's, and some pre-chopped forests. Which is the most pressing is hard to judge.
The tech order seems good, I might consider doing Writing and Math before Masonry if that wouldn't endanger the GLH, that's something I can't comment about in BTS on this level. AH is good to have before doing extensive settling so doing that next makes some sense, good plan.
Round 3: 1760 BC to 400 BC (33 turns)
Research
Techs this round went as we had planned. The general plan was to meander towards a Catapult and Elephant war picking up some other wonderful techs along the way.
Animal Husbandry: This tech was a gamble. I was hoping to see horses somewhere in my cultural borders for some chariot defense and to maybe take that barb city. Did I get any?
Nope. Aggravatingly they are both out of reach, but no matter. Animal Husbandry is still a tech we're going to need for our Elephants.
I continued along with Sailing, Masonry, Writing, and Mathematics. Halfway through researching Maths I got scared. I'm not sure why, but I just did. I realized we were nearing the AD era and I still had warriors defending. It was probably unnecessary, but I made a quick detour.
I thought about researching Iron Working, but we have bigger fish to fry and IW was still expensive. After Mathematics finished I went ahead and started on Construction. The round ends with us nearing the end of Construction. I'm thinking Horseback Riding as the next technology.
Worker Micro
I actually started out taking screenshots of my worker actions, but it was getting ridiculous, so I stopped. I tried to use my workers wisely. Their role in this round was to keep enough tiles improved so that cities were working mines or farms. They also did a lot of chopping. As you'll see in the next section.
Paris
The round started and Paris built a one turn warrior. I have no recollection of why I did this, but I'm sure it was an incredibly sagacious move on my part,
. After the one turn warrior finished I started on a settler. The settler took I think 7 turns to build and I sent him northwest, you'll see later. While the settler was in transit I revolted into Slavery. I like to revolt during the settler's journey. Because the settler (and all units) can move during revolts, but cities can't work tiles or build things. So it's always best to revolt while the settler is moving if possible. I got a lot of use out of the whip this round. Paris got a quick Granary.
Kossin once said the best time to whip a granary was when the food bucket (pan, pot, serving dish ?) was almost half full. If Kossin says so, it goes. After the Granary I went for a forge to take advantage of all the chopping I was about to do. After forge I built a worker since those guys are always good to have around. My Stonehenge + Oracle Gambit popped us a Great Prophet.
I settled him. Early settled Great Prophets are awesome. I though about keeping him for Christianity, since our continent seems completely devoid of religions and I could maybe build the AP and spread Christianity everywhere. But that sounded like a lot of work, so I just settled him. Alright, Masonry was in, let the wonders begin. Paris was put in charge of the Pyramids.
As you can see, I had a lot of chopping done and the Pyramids were going to go up relatively quickly as a result. Fourteen turns later
A fourteen turn Pyramids without stone is pretty cool. I'll take it. I have yet to switch civics, but Representation is the obvious, and necessary, way to go. Paris built some defenders in 3 one-turn archers. As soon as Mathematics was in I put one turn into an aqueduct and cracked the whip to get er done. Okay, how can you tell me not to build the Hanging Gardens
when it only takes FOUR turns? Well you can't tell me not to build it. So there. Note that I could have built it in only 3, but I decided to save the forest for a unit later since the Hanging Gardens were almost definitely mine at this point.
Man I love building wonders.
Orleans
Orleans began this round by finishing the worker it had started on last round. After the worker completed I started on a Granary for optimal whipping.
And again I got to use Kossin's half full food dish rule. I promise these timings are coincidental. But it's cool they worked out that way,
. The taskmaster in Orleans brought down the whip again.
And there was only one logical place for the overflow to go.
Crack
By this point in the round, the city governor was so tired he had to hire a smiley to do his job for him.
.
It was totally worth it.
It might not have been necessary, though. But, the Great Lighthouse is such a nice wonder and it was getting pretty late. I don't think I've ever whipped so much in a city, and all the length of that particular unhappiness face was freaking me out, so I went easy on the whip and stagnated growth.
Everyone who was proud of me for whipping is now probably very displeased. Can you explain to me what I should have done here? Other than build a boat or two, which I know I should have done. How do you handle that much whip anger?
Lyons
Here's where I settled.
Okay, this was not really what we discussed, but I decided it made the most sense. I liked the idea of settling 3S of that location, but felt this would underutilize the clams. One of the reasons I like a lot of overlap is it allows the cottages to be worked early so that when the capital takes them back they're all pretty developed. Given that we were going to be building no cottages, the power of overlap was greatly diminished. Also, the only tiles of worth in that area were the Gold and the Clam and this city could work both of them. By settling there instead of two cities we lose the ability to work a flood plain, a grassland hill, a grassland, and a plains tile. We can always settle 3S later if we want to, but it just didn't seem worth it to me to cram two cities in there.
Lyons started by building a workboat. The worker chopped that forest 1SW of Lyons and I put the chop into a granary. I could have chopped the workboat out, but I didn't see a point in getting the workboat super early since I couldn't improve the clam yet anyway. After the workboat came out, I finished the Granary. I whipped in a lighthouse later. Lyons is currently working on a forge.
Mao
Mao and I have a love-hate relationship in this game. I'm kind of really scared of him, but we seem to be getting along fine. Maybe love-hate isn't the right word. I suppose I'm kind of in awe of him, in the biblical sense. But at the same time, he's an AI and I'm going to trounce him, so I'm not that worried,
. Anyway, he demanded Ivory.
Sure, I'll help him out. This would be canceled promptly in ten turns, though. So yeah, Guangzhou was 98% French at this point, but there hadn't been a revolt yet. Imagine my surprise when this popped up
Well THANKS Mao! I'll take that any day. I don't think I've ever been gifted a city by an AI like that. If he's pulling one of TMIT's tricks and gifting me a city to get me to pleased and lull me into a false sense of security it's totally working. Anyway, I didn't really feel like I was pulling my weight. So I gave him a present.
Yeah... Not sure if I totally paid him back. But we were on the way to becoming friends when he expected my offer.
This might not have been totally wise, but hopefully it would improve our relations a bit. Not really though, because at the end of the round we're still Cautious. Opening Borders was probably a mistake because he was able to get some cities where he wouldn't have been able to had I kept them closed. Ah well. On the other hand, his gallivanting around might have kept me from declaring war on me, so it wasn't a total loss.
Research
Techs this round went as we had planned. The general plan was to meander towards a Catapult and Elephant war picking up some other wonderful techs along the way.
Animal Husbandry: This tech was a gamble. I was hoping to see horses somewhere in my cultural borders for some chariot defense and to maybe take that barb city. Did I get any?
Nope. Aggravatingly they are both out of reach, but no matter. Animal Husbandry is still a tech we're going to need for our Elephants.
I continued along with Sailing, Masonry, Writing, and Mathematics. Halfway through researching Maths I got scared. I'm not sure why, but I just did. I realized we were nearing the AD era and I still had warriors defending. It was probably unnecessary, but I made a quick detour.
I thought about researching Iron Working, but we have bigger fish to fry and IW was still expensive. After Mathematics finished I went ahead and started on Construction. The round ends with us nearing the end of Construction. I'm thinking Horseback Riding as the next technology.
Worker Micro
I actually started out taking screenshots of my worker actions, but it was getting ridiculous, so I stopped. I tried to use my workers wisely. Their role in this round was to keep enough tiles improved so that cities were working mines or farms. They also did a lot of chopping. As you'll see in the next section.
Paris
The round started and Paris built a one turn warrior. I have no recollection of why I did this, but I'm sure it was an incredibly sagacious move on my part,
. After the one turn warrior finished I started on a settler. The settler took I think 7 turns to build and I sent him northwest, you'll see later. While the settler was in transit I revolted into Slavery. I like to revolt during the settler's journey. Because the settler (and all units) can move during revolts, but cities can't work tiles or build things. So it's always best to revolt while the settler is moving if possible. I got a lot of use out of the whip this round. Paris got a quick Granary.Kossin once said the best time to whip a granary was when the food bucket (pan, pot, serving dish ?) was almost half full. If Kossin says so, it goes. After the Granary I went for a forge to take advantage of all the chopping I was about to do. After forge I built a worker since those guys are always good to have around. My Stonehenge + Oracle Gambit popped us a Great Prophet.
I settled him. Early settled Great Prophets are awesome. I though about keeping him for Christianity, since our continent seems completely devoid of religions and I could maybe build the AP and spread Christianity everywhere. But that sounded like a lot of work, so I just settled him. Alright, Masonry was in, let the wonders begin. Paris was put in charge of the Pyramids.
As you can see, I had a lot of chopping done and the Pyramids were going to go up relatively quickly as a result. Fourteen turns later
A fourteen turn Pyramids without stone is pretty cool. I'll take it. I have yet to switch civics, but Representation is the obvious, and necessary, way to go. Paris built some defenders in 3 one-turn archers. As soon as Mathematics was in I put one turn into an aqueduct and cracked the whip to get er done. Okay, how can you tell me not to build the Hanging Gardens
when it only takes FOUR turns? Well you can't tell me not to build it. So there. Note that I could have built it in only 3, but I decided to save the forest for a unit later since the Hanging Gardens were almost definitely mine at this point.
Man I love building wonders.
Orleans
Orleans began this round by finishing the worker it had started on last round. After the worker completed I started on a Granary for optimal whipping.
And again I got to use Kossin's half full food dish rule. I promise these timings are coincidental. But it's cool they worked out that way,
. The taskmaster in Orleans brought down the whip again.And there was only one logical place for the overflow to go.
Crack
By this point in the round, the city governor was so tired he had to hire a smiley to do his job for him.
.It was totally worth it.
It might not have been necessary, though. But, the Great Lighthouse is such a nice wonder and it was getting pretty late. I don't think I've ever whipped so much in a city, and all the length of that particular unhappiness face was freaking me out, so I went easy on the whip and stagnated growth.
Everyone who was proud of me for whipping is now probably very displeased. Can you explain to me what I should have done here? Other than build a boat or two, which I know I should have done. How do you handle that much whip anger?
Lyons
Here's where I settled.
Okay, this was not really what we discussed, but I decided it made the most sense. I liked the idea of settling 3S of that location, but felt this would underutilize the clams. One of the reasons I like a lot of overlap is it allows the cottages to be worked early so that when the capital takes them back they're all pretty developed. Given that we were going to be building no cottages, the power of overlap was greatly diminished. Also, the only tiles of worth in that area were the Gold and the Clam and this city could work both of them. By settling there instead of two cities we lose the ability to work a flood plain, a grassland hill, a grassland, and a plains tile. We can always settle 3S later if we want to, but it just didn't seem worth it to me to cram two cities in there.
Lyons started by building a workboat. The worker chopped that forest 1SW of Lyons and I put the chop into a granary. I could have chopped the workboat out, but I didn't see a point in getting the workboat super early since I couldn't improve the clam yet anyway. After the workboat came out, I finished the Granary. I whipped in a lighthouse later. Lyons is currently working on a forge.
Mao
Mao and I have a love-hate relationship in this game. I'm kind of really scared of him, but we seem to be getting along fine. Maybe love-hate isn't the right word. I suppose I'm kind of in awe of him, in the biblical sense. But at the same time, he's an AI and I'm going to trounce him, so I'm not that worried,
. Anyway, he demanded Ivory. Sure, I'll help him out. This would be canceled promptly in ten turns, though. So yeah, Guangzhou was 98% French at this point, but there hadn't been a revolt yet. Imagine my surprise when this popped up
Well THANKS Mao! I'll take that any day. I don't think I've ever been gifted a city by an AI like that. If he's pulling one of TMIT's tricks and gifting me a city to get me to pleased and lull me into a false sense of security it's totally working. Anyway, I didn't really feel like I was pulling my weight. So I gave him a present.
Yeah... Not sure if I totally paid him back. But we were on the way to becoming friends when he expected my offer.
This might not have been totally wise, but hopefully it would improve our relations a bit. Not really though, because at the end of the round we're still Cautious. Opening Borders was probably a mistake because he was able to get some cities where he wouldn't have been able to had I kept them closed. Ah well. On the other hand, his gallivanting around might have kept me from declaring war on me, so it wasn't a total loss.
Guangzhou
Well Guangzhou already had a Granary and I probably should have built some boats for exploring (yeah, definitely should have done this). But what's the fun in that!? Plus I have marble now, only one thing for it.
Hmm ... don't judge me! Guangzhou, had no protection though, so I whipped in a warrior and let the overflow go into my foolish wonder.
Whippity, whip, whip!
Man, I was not expecting this at all. But I'll take it.
Nicely done. Not a particularly good spot for that particular wonder. But keeping it out of the hands of the AI makes it worthwhile I think.
Uglies Up North
I began the round by focusing all of my espionage on Ragnar and Toku in an even split. I haven't had much interaction with either of them so far in the game, save this potentially good thing.
You'll notice that Ragnar is now Hindu. This is cool since it means there's another civ nearby. Unfortunately my warrior was so busy playing hide and seek he didn't find out who it was. The warrior is now back around my territory waiting. I should probably send him back north to have a poke around Ragnar's holdings.
Okay, you'll notice the name of this sub-section was uglies up north. Barbarians totally count as uglies. Anyway, I had been watching this little episode unfold. Mao had sent a small stack up to the Barb city and I found myself saying drat as I realized he was going to get it. But was he??
Four troops for three barb archers is not going to cut it Mao. I suddenly had dreams and visions of myself taking that barb city from under his nose. ZOMG! It was totally going to work ... maybe.
Heads or tails?
I lost the coin flip and the barbs elected to keep their city. Poop.
I should have been more proactive here. It was my own fault for not paying enough attention and then sending too few forces up there. I probably could have found another unit from somewhere. Ah well.
That's the round up to this point. Take a look around the save if you wish.
Also, I know I need libraries ASAP, don't worry. It's on the top of the list for round 4.
Well Guangzhou already had a Granary and I probably should have built some boats for exploring (yeah, definitely should have done this). But what's the fun in that!? Plus I have marble now, only one thing for it.
Hmm ... don't judge me! Guangzhou, had no protection though, so I whipped in a warrior and let the overflow go into my foolish wonder.
Whippity, whip, whip!
Man, I was not expecting this at all. But I'll take it.
Nicely done. Not a particularly good spot for that particular wonder. But keeping it out of the hands of the AI makes it worthwhile I think.
Uglies Up North
I began the round by focusing all of my espionage on Ragnar and Toku in an even split. I haven't had much interaction with either of them so far in the game, save this potentially good thing.
You'll notice that Ragnar is now Hindu. This is cool since it means there's another civ nearby. Unfortunately my warrior was so busy playing hide and seek he didn't find out who it was. The warrior is now back around my territory waiting. I should probably send him back north to have a poke around Ragnar's holdings.
Okay, you'll notice the name of this sub-section was uglies up north. Barbarians totally count as uglies. Anyway, I had been watching this little episode unfold. Mao had sent a small stack up to the Barb city and I found myself saying drat as I realized he was going to get it. But was he??
Four troops for three barb archers is not going to cut it Mao. I suddenly had dreams and visions of myself taking that barb city from under his nose. ZOMG! It was totally going to work ... maybe.
Heads or tails?
I lost the coin flip and the barbs elected to keep their city. Poop.
I should have been more proactive here. It was my own fault for not paying enough attention and then sending too few forces up there. I probably could have found another unit from somewhere. Ah well.
That's the round up to this point. Take a look around the save if you wish.
Also, I know I need libraries ASAP, don't worry. It's on the top of the list for round 4.
vranasm
Deity
well getting ToA is not bad on itself, but you could get much more if you let it 1T from completion, build some another things and start ToA in another hammer city.
In this way I got the other day something like 600g for failing wonder, you could get much more with ind+marble (I had only marble).
Tough to see for me how the real output of the wonder pays this amount of gold back.
It's my new favorite trick I saw in kossin's Let's play Hatty and some other games. Btw I saw him doing it with National Epic/Heroic Epic too.
In this way I got the other day something like 600g for failing wonder, you could get much more with ind+marble (I had only marble).
Tough to see for me how the real output of the wonder pays this amount of gold back.
It's my new favorite trick I saw in kossin's Let's play Hatty and some other games. Btw I saw him doing it with National Epic/Heroic Epic too.
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