All Things Star Trek

[Valka D'Ur]

Parodies are fine if they're respectful of the source material. That's why I love National Lampoon's Doon and Robin Hood: Men in Tights.

*checks Netflix Canada*

It's not available.

 

[Cutlass]

I haven't gotten around to seeing "pasty white Englishman playing Indian super-soldier" but in the 2009 movie I found Karl Urban to be one of the least objectionable characters. The little we saw of him indicated there was a depth to him as opposed to Chekov who did basically nothing or Sulu whose sole accomplishment seemed to consist of having a collapsible samurai sword in a rather poor shout out to TOS.

Also, did any doctor's in Star Trek ever do any actual doctoring besides jabbing hypos into people? The most memorable scenes with Gates McFadden consisted of her doing everything besides jamming hypos into people.

McCoy did heart surgery on Spock's father.

 

[bhsup]

He also did cement surgery on a Horta. In fact, he did all sorts of medical procedures throughout the original series. That said, I am not sure if it is fair to compare oldBones actions in the series with nuBones actions in movies. It would be fairer to do movie to movie comparisons. nuBones doesn't have 70+ episodes of content to fall back on.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

I am currently watching the second half of season 5 of VOY - and oddly I find myself really enjoying the episodes. Oh don't get me wrong - there is this, that and a million other things which annoy me. Janeway got on my good side by now. Cheekotay is still as uninteresting as ever. The Doctor is less annoying by now. But good lord Tom Paris needs to disappear. His constant faked laughs and failed attempts at being cool make him the most unlikeable star trek character of them all. Topping Neelix by a mile.
Eh what I was saying. I am enjoying myself right now with VOY. But perhaps it also helps that I switch back and forth between VOY and DS9 (season 7) and that I am not watching one episode after another, but give it decent time to breath.
I just thought that I shared something positive about VOY after I did so much complaining before.

Now,
Anyone else hates the guts of Tom Paris?

 

[Arakhor]

I think it's S5 where he's deliberately dislikeable, but no, I hardly hate anything in Star Trek, with the possible exception of doppelgänger or 'disgusting disease' plots.

 

[Kan' Sharuminar]

Anyone else hates the guts of Tom Paris?

Pilot, nurse, warp-10 pioneer, salamander, shuttle-designer, holo-novelist, special forces agent, amateur historian and, I think, engineer? This man is the most qualified man in Starfleet, and he's the guy they didn't want.

He, besides the Doctor, actually became my favourite character of Voyager. He just seems like the only sane man on that ship of fools, yet somehow manages to maintain a smile.

I'm also heavily biased towards Bride of Chaotica, which has Tom Paris at his best/worst, whichever way you're inclined, so take my comments as you will.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

I am currently watching the second half of season 5 of VOY - and oddly I find myself really enjoying the episodes. Oh don't get me wrong - there is this, that and a million other things which annoy me. Janeway got on my good side by now. Cheekotay is still as uninteresting as ever. The Doctor is less annoying by now. But good lord Tom Paris needs to disappear. His constant faked laughs and failed attempts at being cool make him the most unlikeable star trek character of them all. Topping Neelix by a mile.
Eh what I was saying. I am enjoying myself right now with VOY. But perhaps it also helps that I switch back and forth between VOY and DS9 (season 7) and that I am not watching one episode after another, but give it decent time to breath.
I just thought that I shared something positive about VOY after I did so much complaining before.

Now,
Anyone else hates the guts of Tom Paris?

No, I most certainly do NOT hate Tom Paris. I like him. A lot.

Some Trek history, here: Tom Paris was originally supposed to be the character Nick Locarno, one of Wesley's ex-classmates from the TNG episode "The First Duty". Nick Locarno tried something fancy during a piloting demonstration and it got a classmate killed. He convinced Wesley to agree to a coverup at the enquiry, and Wesley went along.

Memory Alpha has this to say:

Shortly before commencement, on stardate 45703, the Nova Squadron flight team was involved in an accidental collision trying to do the highly controversial and banned Kolvoord Starburst maneuver for the graduation ceremony on the Academy Flight Range near one of Saturn's moons, Titan. Cadet Joshua Albert was killed in the crash, while the other members of the team were able to activate their emergency transporters to escape their doomed ships.

Locarno convinced his team members - Wesley Crusher, Sito Jaxa and Jean Hajar - that the accident was Albert's fault and persuaded them to ultimately cover up the fact that they performed a prohibited maneuver and lie at the subsequent hearing. However, the truth was discovered by Captain Jean-Luc Picard who believed that Locarno wanted to end his Academy career in a blaze of glory and that he convinced the other team members to learn the Kolvoord starburst for the commencement demonstrations, allowing Locarno to graduate as a living legend. Outraged, Picard confronted Wesley Crusher about it, asking him to either come forward or else he would do it for him. Locarno, who had always insisted that everything he did was for his friends and the team, took full responsibility for the accident and was subsequently expelled from the Academy. The other members were almost expelled as well had it not been for Locarno's passionate plea to the inquiry board. (TNG: "The First Duty")

Source: http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Nicholas_Locarno


The Voyager producers wanted the actor for the show, but when it came to the character, there were two issues: The first was the matter of who actually owned the character, since he'd been a one-shot character on a different version of Star Trek. In that instance, they'd have had to pay royalties to the writer(s) of "The First Duty" as the owner(s) of the character - in every episode in which he was used. The second was the question of whether or not the character was "redeemable" in the eyes of the audience. The backstories are similar, but we didn't actually ever see what Tom Paris did that got him thrown out of Starfleet, we didn't see him join the Maquis, and we didn't see him get thrown into prison.

Pilot, nurse, warp-10 pioneer, salamander, shuttle-designer, holo-novelist, special forces agent, amateur historian and, I think, engineer? This man is the most qualified man in Starfleet, and he's the guy they didn't want.

He, besides the Doctor, actually became my favourite character of Voyager. He just seems like the only sane man on that ship of fools, yet somehow manages to maintain a smile.

I'm also heavily biased towards Bride of Chaotica, which has Tom Paris at his best/worst, whichever way you're inclined, so take my comments as you will.

If you like fanfic, I can recommend an excellent series of post-Endgame stories about Tom Paris, in which he continues his Starfleet career and eventually gets his own captaincy.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

That wasn't called for.

I've never made any secret of my dislike for nuTrek.

I know, which is why I'm puzzled by your need to express that anger in-depth at me again just because I dared to say something positive about it. Like, that's your opinion, and this is mine. Neither is a false fact to be shouted down.



Also, totally hopping on board with the Paris-hate, although I can't endorse the Neelix-hate and Chakotay-hate. Neelix, Chakotay, The Doctor, Tuvok, and Kes are the only sensible, tolerable people (and Tuvok somewhat often pushes the boundaries of my definition of that...) on that ship. The rest can get shot out an airlock or turned over to the Kazon for all I care.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

I know, which is why I'm puzzled by your need to express that anger in-depth at me again just because I dared to say something positive about it. Like, that's your opinion, and this is mine. Neither is a false fact to be shouted down.

I don't care what your opinion of nuTrek is in that context. What angered me was your uncalled-for negative assessment of my personality, which I opted not to report (thinking that perhaps it was something we could work out on our own without involving a moderator). Next time you attack the poster instead of the post, I'll just report it, if that's your preference.

Also, totally hopping on board with the Paris-hate, although I can't endorse the Neelix-hate and Chakotay-hate. Neelix, Chakotay, The Doctor, Tuvok, and Kes are the only sensible, tolerable people (and Tuvok somewhat often pushes the boundaries of my definition of that...) on that ship. The rest can get shot out an airlock or turned over to the Kazon for all I care.

Neelix... okay most of the time, really irritating when he was jealous of Kes having other male friends, but otherwise fun and a source of some very interesting insights.

Chakotay... boring. Really horribly boring most of the time. That said, there are a few fanfic writers who can make him tolerable, even the one who specializes in Chakotay/Seven pairings.

The Doctor... love his character!

Tuvok... meh. I preferred him in the stories when they were away from the ship in unusual situations or when he wasn't himself.

Kes... hated her and good riddance. Not even the best fanfic writers can make her tolerable for me.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I always thought Chakotay filled a necessary function. Solidity may not be exciting, but it provides continuity. I thought the obviously never resolvable infatuation with Janeway was interesting too.

Of course I don't really qualify as a fan. Like all incarnations of Trek, Voyager had some good stories and some lame stories, but I never got invested in any characters one way or the other. Just my opinion, but the basics of space opera generally prevent that. The 'white hats' are too apparent to ignore, and the 'black hats' too obviously bad to allow much ill feeling for the good guys to really develop.

 

[Plotinus]

You need to. In addition to it being the best Star Trek/Space opera parody I've seen it is also a very good movie.

It's brilliant (even if it's basically the same plot as The Three Amigos...). Also one of the best cinema-going experiences I can remember: the audience loved it and applauded en masse at the end. I don't think I've ever seen that happen otherwise.

On Voyager characters, I don't get the hate for Chakotay. He was one of my favourites, although he became more boring in the later series where they removed his mystical side (no more pan pipes every time he went into his quarters).

Tuvok was similar - an interesting character to start with who seemed to lose any purpose other than standing on one side of the bridge spouting technobabble when required.

Neelix is a horrendous character, a supposedly comic character who isn't actually funny. He reminds me of the line that one of the writers for Morecambe and Wise said about them: they're a comedian who isn't funny and a straight man who is. Neelix is a comedian who isn't funny, but he's not paired with a straight man who is. Making him constantly mock Tuvok doesn't count. He's just incredibly irritating. He's like Snarf from Thundercats without the depth. They tried to give him a bit of depth in some ways - his guilt about his past, his cowardice and anger, his jealousy about Kes - but since all of these were extremely negative and unlikeable traits, I don't think it really helped.

I thought that Paris was the least likeable of them (other than Neelix), but he was still likeable, because this was pretty much a crew of unfeasibly positive people. Perhaps the main thing I found annoying about him was his supposed obsession with twentieth-century culture. I know the writers like to make bridges for viewers to identify with, but it sometimes seems as if no significant cultural developments have happened in the Star Trek world - people watch cinema from hundreds of years ago, play music from hundreds of years ago, act plays from hundreds of years ago, and all of these things seem to be mainstream, not the preserve of scholars or the occasional weird fanatic. Culturally speaking it's an incredibly conservative world.

Kes was a bit of a void really. She could have been an interesting character, with her shortened life span and what it might have meant for her relationships with the others, but they obviously didn't really know what to do with her. Same for Kim, who was also a bit of a void, which was a shame because the actor had a few outstanding moments which showed he could have done something more interesting with the character.

The Doctor is obviously the greatest character in the whole of Trek. I can't think of a single bad episode that was about him. He worked so well because, unlike Neelix, he was a genuinely funny character who could pull off a comedy episode, but he also had more depth and even tragedy to him which meant that he could be serious too.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

It's brilliant (even if it's basically the same plot as The Three Amigos...). Also one of the best cinema-going experiences I can remember: the audience loved it and applauded en masse at the end. I don't think I've ever seen that happen otherwise.

On Voyager characters, I don't get the hate for Chakotay. He was one of my favourites, although he became more boring in the later series where they removed his mystical side (no more pan pipes every time he went into his quarters).

Tuvok was similar - an interesting character to start with who seemed to lose any purpose other than standing on one side of the bridge spouting technobabble when required.

Neelix is a horrendous character, a supposedly comic character who isn't actually funny. He reminds me of the line that one of the writers for Morecambe and Wise said about them: they're a comedian who isn't funny and a straight man who is. Neelix is a comedian who isn't funny, but he's not paired with a straight man who is. Making him constantly mock Tuvok doesn't count. He's just incredibly irritating. He's like Snarf from Thundercats without the depth. They tried to give him a bit of depth in some ways - his guilt about his past, his cowardice and anger, his jealousy about Kes - but since all of these were extremely negative and unlikeable traits, I don't think it really helped.

I thought that Paris was the least likeable of them (other than Neelix), but he was still likeable, because this was pretty much a crew of unfeasibly positive people. Perhaps the main thing I found annoying about him was his supposed obsession with twentieth-century culture. I know the writers like to make bridges for viewers to identify with, but it sometimes seems as if no significant cultural developments have happened in the Star Trek world - people watch cinema from hundreds of years ago, play music from hundreds of years ago, act plays from hundreds of years ago, and all of these things seem to be mainstream, not the preserve of scholars or the occasional weird fanatic. Culturally speaking it's an incredibly conservative world.

Kes was a bit of a void really. She could have been an interesting character, with her shortened life span and what it might have meant for her relationships with the others, but they obviously didn't really know what to do with her. Same for Kim, who was also a bit of a void, which was a shame because the actor had a few outstanding moments which showed he could have done something more interesting with the character.

The Doctor is obviously the greatest character in the whole of Trek. I can't think of a single bad episode that was about him. He worked so well because, unlike Neelix, he was a genuinely funny character who could pull off a comedy episode, but he also had more depth and even tragedy to him which meant that he could be serious too.

The problem with Chakotay was that he was supposed to be a spiritual Native American, but he was given such a bland set of customs, stories, traditions, etc., that it was like the writers took all the "noble savage" traits, threw them in a blender, and gave the least 'offensive' ones to him. They couldn't even make up their minds if his beliefs were based on tribes from North, Central, or South America! For those fans who actually are Native American and those who have studied anthropology, it was a less-than-pleasing result. That whole speech in "Scorpion" about the scorpion's nature? The character of Shelly Tambeau did it much better in Northern Exposure, and took a lot less time to get to the point.

One of the things people argue about regarding Tuvok was the matter of whether pon farr works on the holodeck or whether the telepathic connection is essential. Voyager chose the easiest way out of this and turned one of the most secretive things about Vulcans into a dumb joke.

Neelix had flaws, yes, but he worked to overcome them. He had character growth over the 7 seasons. And he was a good babysitter for Naomi and mentor for Seven.

Paris was into the 20th century, but it wasn't the 20th century that was contemporary with the time when Voyager itself was in production. Tom was floundering with 1990s slang, whereas he understood 1950s slang and pop culture just fine.

Nobody has opinions about Janeway, B'Elanna, or Seven?

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

I don't care what your opinion of nuTrek is in that context. What angered me was your uncalled-for negative assessment of my personality, which I opted not to report (thinking that perhaps it was something we could work out on our own without involving a moderator). Next time you attack the poster instead of the post, I'll just report it, if that's your preference.

Sometimes your assertive opinions come off...offensively and intolerantly. If it wasn't meant that way, then I apologize for returning fire.

Kes... hated her and good riddance. Not even the best fanfic writers can make her tolerable for me.

I appreciated Kes because she was pretty much always stable and level-headed, but not always coldly logical, either. I saw her as a valuable foil to Janeway, would was always cold and methodical, and in my opinion, selfish. There was a dynamic between her and Neelix that I saw as reflective of our own society: a bright, capable young woman in danger of being smothered by her loving but overprotective male partner, who feels like he has to be her White Knight and often struggles between resenting her autonomy and encouraging it. She, meanwhile, doesn't have the heart to tell him to get lost or to wholly escape his domineering fatherliness, partly because she's just now entering the larger universe and might feel like she kinda needs that guidance (even though she pretty much doesn't - she's got this better than most of the crew does!), and partly...I'm not sure why else. But her character is far more useful in the "examine our own society's inner workings" kind of way that Star Trek generally is, but which Voyager in particular so often lacked (as I have ranted about above).

Nobody has opinions about Janeway, B'Elanna, or Seven?

Janeway I truly despise. I think she's selfish, deserves to be court-martialed, and is generally unfit for command. She'd make a good space pirate, or periodic villain. Compare her with Seska: Seska is supposed to be a villain and a turncoat, right? But her and Janeway are essentially identical: they both act based on personal motivations but excuse them with reference to some higher cause - Seksa to Cardassian interests in the Delta Quadrant, Janeway to Federation principles - and are willing to break any number of rules in order to do what they want. You can't imagine Picard, Kirk, or Sisko behaving that way, they all showed due deference to higher principles which truly governed their actions. Janeway doesn't; at times she does, but she also proves just as willing to discard them and excuse it away, which makes me see her previous deference as part of a larger realpolitik by her, a shrewd excuse-making to get herself out of having to, say, challenge a defended planet for a resource they want by bringing up The Prime Directive or "that's just not our way." I think she and Seska are essentially the same person, so if Seska is a villain, then Janeway can be one too.

B'Elanna was interesting at times, but I felt she was too cookie-cutter "strong woman" to be truly interesting. Sort of like Lana on Archer, but with a more uncontrollable temper. In the beginning she showed real potential for character growth once she was made chief engineer and shortly after, but after that she never really escapes the "teenager thrown into responsible-peoples' world" trope, which I find extremely tiring. She almost belongs in nuTrek!

No real opinion on Seven of Nine, I haven't gotten that far in the series yet. I remember her from when the show aired, but not extensively so. I remember her becoming the show's necessary "discover/rediscover your humanity" incarnation, shoes that Odo and Data filled in series past.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Sometimes your assertive opinions come off...offensively and intolerantly. If it wasn't meant that way, then I apologize for returning fire.

Accepted, thank you. Some people have mistaken my negative opinions about the Abrams movies to also be negative opinions about the Abrams movies' fans. The two are quite separate issues.

I find the movies themselves to be ridiculous and dumbed-down, but the people who enjoy them are simply people who enjoy them. To give an example of the reverse situation, I enjoy the Lynch version of Dune while some other Dune fans despise it.

I appreciated Kes because she was pretty much always stable and level-headed, but not always coldly logical, either. I saw her as a valuable foil to Janeway, would was always cold and methodical, and in my opinion, selfish. There was a dynamic between her and Neelix that I saw as reflective of our own society: a bright, capable young woman in danger of being smothered by her loving but overprotective male partner, who feels like he has to be her White Knight and often struggles between resenting her autonomy and encouraging it. She, meanwhile, doesn't have the heart to tell him to get lost or to wholly escape his domineering fatherliness, partly because she's just now entering the larger universe and might feel like she kinda needs that guidance (even though she pretty much doesn't - she's got this better than most of the crew does!), and partly...I'm not sure why else. But her character is far more useful in the "examine our own society's inner workings" kind of way that Star Trek generally is, but which Voyager in particular so often lacked (as I have ranted about above).

This is an interesting assessment of Kes. I think that if they'd avoided giving her mystical, magical powers, she'd have been a more believable character. But they turned her into a junior Traveler-type character with a side helping of pyromania, and that is just not a character that appeals to me.

Janeway I truly despise. I think she's selfish, deserves to be court-martialed, and is generally unfit for command. She'd make a good space pirate, or periodic villain. Compare her with Seska: Seska is supposed to be a villain and a turncoat, right? But her and Janeway are essentially identical: they both act based on personal motivations but excuse them with reference to some higher cause - Seksa to Cardassian interests in the Delta Quadrant, Janeway to Federation principles - and are willing to break any number of rules in order to do what they want. You can't imagine Picard, Kirk, or Sisko behaving that way, they all showed due deference to higher principles which truly governed their actions. Janeway doesn't; at times she does, but she also proves just as willing to discard them and excuse it away, which makes me see her previous deference as part of a larger realpolitik by her, a shrewd excuse-making to get herself out of having to, say, challenge a defended planet for a resource they want by bringing up The Prime Directive or "that's just not our way." I think she and Seska are essentially the same person, so if Seska is a villain, then Janeway can be one too.

Janeway is more like Kirk than she would ever dare admit. She can strut around her Ready Room and make a speech about how she and her colleagues are better than Kirk and his colleagues, but there were times when she did some very Kirk-like actions.

B'Elanna was interesting at times, but I felt she was too cookie-cutter "strong woman" to be truly interesting. Sort of like Lana on Archer, but with a more uncontrollable temper. In the beginning she showed real potential for character growth once she was made chief engineer and shortly after, but after that she never really escapes the "teenager thrown into responsible-peoples' world" trope, which I find extremely tiring. She almost belongs in nuTrek!

She did have some character growth once she and Tom got married. There was also the potential for a "frenemy" relationship with Seven. They were finally getting there, when the show ended.

No real opinion on Seven of Nine, I haven't gotten that far in the series yet. I remember her from when the show aired, but not extensively so. I remember her becoming the show's necessary "discover/rediscover your humanity" incarnation, shoes that Odo and Data filled in series past.

Seven is my favorite Voyager character, followed by the Doctor and Tom Paris.

 

[EgonSpengler]

I didn't hate any of the Voyager characters, but only a few of them were charismatic or interesting. The Doctor and B'Elana were the reasons to watch the show, imo, and Harry seemed like a guy I could have a beer with, although off the top of my head, I can't recall a single story that centered on him. Overall, Voyager was the least of the Trek shows for me. I even prefer Enterprise to it, which isn't something I hear often (or ever).

This forum doesn't seem into forum games, but I did a couple of fun "Star Trek character drafts" elsewhere (participants take turns drafting Star Trek characters, as if crewing their own Star Fleet ship - kind of like fantasy sports, but without any games to watch afterward). As I recall, the Voyager crew were the least popular overall.

 

[Arakhor]

As I recall, the Kes character got rather shoved onto a bus by Jennifer Lien's allergy to the Ocampan prosthetics and problems with the character itself. I liked her though, not least because the actress shares my birthday.

 

[Plotinus]

The problem with Chakotay was that he was supposed to be a spiritual Native American, but he was given such a bland set of customs, stories, traditions, etc., that it was like the writers took all the "noble savage" traits, threw them in a blender, and gave the least 'offensive' ones to him. They couldn't even make up their minds if his beliefs were based on tribes from North, Central, or South America! For those fans who actually are Native American and those who have studied anthropology, it was a less-than-pleasing result. That whole speech in "Scorpion" about the scorpion's nature? The character of Shelly Tambeau did it much better in Northern Exposure, and took a lot less time to get to the point.

You're quite right that the whole "spiritual Native American" thing was lazy - it's a lazy stereotype to start with and it was handled unimaginatively. I suppose I liked him as a character apart from this - I thought his calm demeanour was admirable - in some ways the character is almost Vulcan. Obviously he also has a passionate and idealistic side too, hence his membership of the Maquis, but that was something the writers rarely explored (just as they abandoned the whole Maquis aspect of the situation).

Neelix had flaws, yes, but he worked to overcome them. He had character growth over the 7 seasons.

This may be true but I can't say I remember seeing it. He was still attacking "Mr Vulcan" for being emotionless right up to the very end. I was always annoyed at Bones' rather racist taunts to Spock about the latter's emotionlessness - but that worked, all the same, because Bones genuinely cared about whatever it was that Spock was being emotionless about. Bones' anger was understandable and sympathetic. Neelix, by contrast, just seems to enjoy needling Tuvok apropos of nothing. No wonder Tuvok fantasises about strangling him:


Link to video.

BTW it seems that just typing "Tuvok" into YouTube instantly brings up the search term "Tuvok kills Neelix". I get the impression that's a popular clip.

And he was a good babysitter for Naomi and mentor for Seven.

True, but simply having a useful role within the world of the story doesn't make a character interesting, relatable, or sympathetic.

Paris was into the 20th century, but it wasn't the 20th century that was contemporary with the time when Voyager itself was in production. Tom was floundering with 1990s slang, whereas he understood 1950s slang and pop culture just fine.

That's true too. I suppose it reminds me too much of Demolition Man, which parodied this trope of the future character having an interest in twentieth-century culture - before Voyager was ever made. Once something's been parodied it's hard to take it seriously!

Nobody has opinions about Janeway, B'Elanna, or Seven?

On Seven, she very much dominated the later series, but you can see why - she was genuinely the most interesting character with the most interesting issues - not that she ever really developed and progressed in any meaningful way, because the format of the programme wouldn't let her do so. I do think it's a problem with Trek in general that the most interesting and popular characters always seem to be the ones who struggle with the concepts of humanity and emotions in various ways - Spock, Data, Seven. All are unemotional and find it hard to fit into a human society they don't really understand; if they were real they'd all be somewhere on the autism spectrum. There's nothing wrong with that in itself, but I did feel that the writers were basically saying: "We need to revitalise this a bit, let's just invent another twist on the 'cannot understand human emotions' thing and put her in a leotard." The fact that it's an effective strategy doesn't disguise the fact that it's not something new.

Janeway I truly despise. I think she's selfish, deserves to be court-martialed, and is generally unfit for command. She'd make a good space pirate, or periodic villain. Compare her with Seska: Seska is supposed to be a villain and a turncoat, right? But her and Janeway are essentially identical: they both act based on personal motivations but excuse them with reference to some higher cause - Seksa to Cardassian interests in the Delta Quadrant, Janeway to Federation principles - and are willing to break any number of rules in order to do what they want. You can't imagine Picard, Kirk, or Sisko behaving that way, they all showed due deference to higher principles which truly governed their actions. Janeway doesn't; at times she does, but she also proves just as willing to discard them and excuse it away, which makes me see her previous deference as part of a larger realpolitik by her, a shrewd excuse-making to get herself out of having to, say, challenge a defended planet for a resource they want by bringing up The Prime Directive or "that's just not our way." I think she and Seska are essentially the same person, so if Seska is a villain, then Janeway can be one too.

Mostly agree with this, but I think Valka's right to liken Janeway to Kirk. They would both be terrible captains in the real world. Janeway succeeds because, like Kirk, she inhabits a rather childish world governed by the laws of satisfying narrative, where ignoring the odds, taking insane risks, and generally being utterly irresponsible always wins. She's an annoying character, at least to me, because as the captain and the one responsible for making the decisions that allow the crew to survive from one episode to the next, she's the one who reflects the pretty shallow and unrealistic world of Voyager, which despite the downbeat premise is for the most part one long jolly adventure. Picard doesn't operate like that because TNG tried to create a more complex and believable setting with problems that couldn't be solved just by getting into a fistfight or doing something with a 97.863% probability of failure, captain.

I should say that I really liked Voyager, for all its flaws. I think it's because I found all the characters other than Neelix to be genuinely likeable. It could have been a lot better than it was, but it produced some truly great episodes (mainly those focusing on the Doctor).

 

[Timsup2nothin]

The problem with Chakotay was that he was supposed to be a spiritual Native American, but he was given such a bland set of customs, stories, traditions, etc., that it was like the writers took all the "noble savage" traits, threw them in a blender, and gave the least 'offensive' ones to him. They couldn't even make up their minds if his beliefs were based on tribes from North, Central, or South America! For those fans who actually are Native American and those who have studied anthropology, it was a less-than-pleasing result.

I figure they were following the same basic principle as the 'Native American' culture in Civ IV. Give it another few centuries and it probably will be amalgamated pretty thoroughly.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Picard doesn't operate like that because TNG tried to create a more complex and believable setting with problems that couldn't be solved just by getting into a fistfight or doing something with a 97.863% probability of failure, captain.

There can be too much diplomacy, though. There's a saying that when Kirk meets an enemy that's about to kill him and his crew, he either outfights them or outwits them by bluffing about fighting.

When Picard meets an enemy, first he finds out if Troi can sense anything, then they all go have a meeting.

I figure they were following the same basic principle as the 'Native American' culture in Civ IV. Give it another few centuries and it probably will be amalgamated pretty thoroughly.

I have never played Civ IV, but that sounds... bizarre, depending on which principles, customs, and traditions get kept.

 

[bhsup]

I think you guys are being a bit unfair to Janeway here. The reality of the situation dictates that she is not always going to be able to toe the Federation line. Pragmatically, being stuck 70,000 light years away from the Federation all by your lonesome means you are going to have to either sacrifice your principles on occasion or sacrifice your crew. You choose.