Altered Maps ΙΓ: To make a map larger than what it maps.

[Phrossack]

Erm... Carmarthenshire, Dyfed, Clwyd, Pembroke, Monmouthshire,...

No. You are right. It is hard.

Go on. Do your own. You know you want to.

Flint? That's in there somewhere, I'm sure.

Now, my geographical knowledge of Wales kinda stops after about the 7th century. It's possible some things have changed since then, but it seems unlikely.

13: Ynys Mon
4: Dyfed?
6: Brycheiniog?
5: Ceredigion?
12: Gwynedd, or maybe Snowdonia
2: Gwent?
8: Powys?

What the Gulf of Bothnia will look like in 2000 years:

I just wanted to say that "Ostrobothnia" is the coolest placename I've ever seen.

 

[Kyriakos]

Bothnia...

must resist balkan-based 'joke' :O

 

[Domen]

Finnophilia. Finland single-handedly defeated Germany in WW2 despite being 3 to 1 outnumbered:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lapland_War

Not to mention Finnish-Soviet combats:


Link to video.

 

[Borachio]

Hang on just a minute. Wasn't Finland, if not actively on Germany's side in WW2, at least somewhat aligned with it? Having a common enemy in Soviet Russia.

 

[Domen]

Yes, Finland was initially on Germany's side but by the end of the war in 1944, Finland (just like Romania) changed sides and joined the Allies.

Finland attacked and defeated German forces during the Lapland War, being on the offensive even though outnumbered 3 to 1 by German forces.

Having a common enemy in Soviet Russia.

Finland was "hostile" towards the SU in 1941 - 1944 only because in 1939 the SU invaded Finland which resulted in the Winter War (1939-1940).

In 1941 Finland invaded the SU but it just retook territories lost in 1940, occupied Carelia, and after that it pretty much halted its offensive.

In 1942 and 1943 there was pretty much just a "Phoney War" along the Finnish-Soviet Front. And in 1944 Soviet offensive started.

Finland surrendered to the Soviets and attacked German forces in Finland, pushing them out of Finland all the way into Norway.

 

[Kyriakos]

^Given that the wiki page you linked to mentions that the casualties in total (both sides) of the 'Finno-German war' were... a few hundred people... well i suppose that was a phoney war as well

 

[Domen]

a few hundred people

???

Almost 10 thousand people (out of not even 300 thousand taking part).

 

[Kyriakos]

???

Almost 10 thousand people (out of not even 300 thousand taking part).

Don't play dumb

Casualties and losses


Germany
~1,000 dead
~1,300 POW
~2,000 wounded[3]


Finland
774 dead
262 missing
2,904 wounded[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lapland_War

If you seriously want to present this as a war, then ok, but keep in mind what sort of loss/casualty stats ww2 had. More people were summarily executed in ww2 by germans in a couple of occupied villages, than those who died in the 'german-finnish war' of 1944

 

[Domen]

but keep in mind what sort of loss/casualty stats ww2 had.

US Army deaths in North African Campaign of WW2 (ground forces):

Algeria - 671 dead
Tunisia - 3,053 dead

So fighting against Erwin Rommel = "phoney war"

German losses in the German Invasion of Greece (including British forces in Greece) in 1941:

1,423 dead and 3,411 wounded

So fighting vs Greece = "phoney war" *

* Unless you are Italian, but then even Ethiopian spearmen are serious enemies.

 

[Borachio]

Eastern Front military dead
Axis 5,178,000
Allied 10,651,000

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Front_(World_War_II)

 

[Civ'ed]

* Unless you are Italian, but then even Ethiopian spearmen are serious enemies.

Ethiopia has guns, just antiquated ones.

 

[Domen]

So all other fronts of WW2 except for the Eastern Front = "phoney wars". Thanks for enlightening us, Borachio.

==================================================

PS: casualties in manpower - especially dead people - are relatively irrelevant in wars, unless they are exceedingly high (so called "wars of attrition").

You just bury a dead soldier and forget about him. Even wounded are more problematic because you actually need to treat them.

You look at other things - how much territory & stuff was captured, how far back did the enemy retreat, how much demoralized is the enemy, etc.

Finnish forces 75,000 men strong pushed away some 215,000 men strong German army out of their country = it was a clear victory for Finland.

And how many Krauts died / got wounded, etc., in the process, was only of secondary importance, from Finnish perspective at least.

Not every war which is not a war of attrition (that is, casualties are not exceedingly high), is a "phoney war".

If that was really the case, then most of wars in human history should be described as "phoney wars".

The Eastern Front was a war of attrition but it doesn't mean that all other fronts were "phoney".

Ethiopia has guns, just antiquated ones.

I know, I know - it was supposed to be a kind of a metaphor. But some of them had just spears.

===========================

By "phoney war" I mean a war in which no of opposing sides is really attacking. That was the case along the Soviet-Finnish Front throughout 1942 and 1943. There was a major Finnish offensive in 1941, then no any major offensives for two years (only local attacks), and a major Soviet offensive in 1944.

 

[Kyriakos]

US Army deaths in North African Campaign of WW2 (ground forces):

Algeria - 671 dead
Tunisia - 3,053 dead

So fighting against Erwin Rommel = "phoney war"

German losses in the German Invasion of Greece (including British forces in Greece) in 1941:

1,423 dead and 3,411 wounded

So fighting vs Greece = "phoney war" *

* Unless you are Italian, but then even Ethiopian spearmen are serious enemies.

Not even mildly comparable, given Greece was fighting a three front war at the time (Italy-Germany-Bulgaria) and the German casualties were in the line of Greek forts in the north- the so-called 'Metaxas line' of forts. When those forts fell, the war vs Germany was lost, cause it could never be sustained with a huge opening in Yugoslavia and Bulgaria+ no forts+ most of the army in Albania. A seperate german campaign with notable casualties was in Crete, later on). In contrast Finnland had just signed a ceasefire with the USSR and part of the terms of that was to ask German troops to vacate its country, but the timetable was unworkable so out of fear of being squashed by USSR (or the allies after the war) noble Finland turned on its noble ally, Germany. 1700 dead soldiers in that brutal conflict which surely dwarved what was going on elsewhere in Europe at the time

 

[Domen]

German losses (ground forces) during the conquest of Norway (09.04.1940 - 10.06.1940): 1166 killed, 1548 wounded, 1091 missing.

This includes also soldiers who died or got missing during transport at sea, when e.g. ships transporting them were sunk.

German losses during the invasion of Holland in 1940 were ca. 1700 dead (Dutch losses: 2890 dead; French losses in Holland: 216 dead).

given Greece was fighting a three front war at the time (Italy-Germany-Bulgaria)

Bulgaria suffered negligible losses as well, even smaller than German losses - IIRC.

and the German casualties were in the line of Greek forts in the north- the so-called 'Metaxas line' of forts.

Certainly not all of German casualties in Greece were suffered along the Metaxas Line. But a large portion for sure.

=============================================

Losses of German 2nd Panzer Division during the Balkan Campaign:

Killed - 6 officers, 21 NCOs and 51 men = 78
Wounded - 21 officers, 78 NCOs and 260 men = 359

But after the end of military operations in Greece, while returning to Germany, transport ships "Marburg" and "Kybfels" carrying the tracked elements of 2nd Panzer Division were sunk by a recently laid British mine barrage. This caused casualties:

Dead - 2 officers, 5 NCOs and 33 men = 40
Missing - 3 officers, 33 NCOs and 108 men = 144

In total 184 dead and missing (in fact drown in the sea).

These ships were sunk during the night from 20th to 21st of May 1941.

This division lost more soldiers dead or drown during that single incident than during entire Balkan Campaign.

But it seems that Germans included losses resulting from sinking of "Marburg" and "Kybfels" into losses of the Greek Campaign.

 

[Kyriakos]

German losses (ground forces) during the conquest of Norway (09.04.1940 - 10.06.1940): 1166 killed, 1548 wounded, 1091 missing.

This includes also soldiers who died or got missing during transport at sea, when e.g. ships transporting them were sunk.

German losses during the invasion of Holland in 1940 were ca. 1700 dead (Dutch losses: 2890 dead; French losses in Holland: 216 dead).



Bulgaria suffered negligible losses as well, even smaller than German losses - IIRC.



Certainly not all of German casualties in Greece were suffered along the Metaxas Line. But a large portion for sure.

=============================================

Losses of German 2nd Panzer Division during the Balkan Campaign:

Killed - 6 officers, 21 NCOs and 51 men = 78
Wounded - 21 officers, 78 NCOs and 260 men = 359

But after the end of military operations in Greece, while returning to Germany, transport ships "Marburg" and "Kybfels" carrying the tracked elements of 2nd Panzer Division were sunk by a recently laid British mine barrage. This caused casualties:

Dead - 2 officers, 5 NCOs and 33 men = 40
Missing - 3 officers, 33 NCOs and 108 men = 144

In total 184 dead and missing (in fact drown in the sea).

These ships were sunk during the night from 20th to 21st of May 1941.

This division lost more soldiers dead or drown during that single incident than during entire Balkan Campaign.

But it seems that Germans included losses resulting from sinking of "Marburg" and "Kybfels" into losses of the Greek Campaign.

Don't turn the thread into a tag-of-war, when it is not even about discussing history. The Metaxas line forts held 5 german divisions for a number of days, and caused in those few days more than 3.000 casualties to the enemy. Check the wiki article i suppose.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Metaxas_Line

Germany Greece
Yugoslavia
Commanders and leaders
Nazi Germany Wilhelm List Kingdom of Greece Konstantinos Bakopoulos
Strength
One Panzer Division
Two Mountain Divisions
Three Infantry Divisions
One Independent Infantry Regiment

One Air Corps with 650 aircraft Greece:
65,110 officers and other ranks
188 field artillery pieces
76 anti-tank guns
30 anti-aircraft guns
40 tankettes
Yugoslavia:
infantry elements
Casualties and losses
Ground forces:a[›]
603+ killed
192+ missing
2,403+ wounded
Total:
3,198+

I suppose there were also 5 german divisions fighting Finland, along with air bombing support and a tank division. Maybe aliens were also landing in Helsinki to make up for Italy and Bulgaria But in reality the total of just the Italian/Greek/German armies there was far larger than the entire population of Finland.

 

[Domen]

Animation of map showing the course of the Lapland War:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JY_vUWkHFVo#t=33

==================================

Kyriakos,

I have better sources than wiki. My numbers for casualties of German 2nd Panzer Division were from "Panzertruppen" book by Jentz.

I also have a book about history of this division by Franz Josef Strauss.

Here you can read about casualties of Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler SS division in Greece (in total they lost 75 - 96 dead, most likely 84):

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=172693&hilit=Greece

5 german divisions

And it was defended by equivalent of 5 Greek divisions + some Yugoslavian reinforcements.

 

[Kyriakos]

That is great, Domen, now pls move on along with the 96 ghost-corpses in the better YouTube source (which you did well to now edit out, pls stick to -altered- maps ).

 

[Domen]

One division is typically between 10 k and 20 k men*, so 215,000 seems like much more than 5 divisions.

One brigade is usually between 6 k and 12 k men.

Though of course armies can have also a lot of non-divisional and rear or non-combat units, etc.

*Sometimes there are smaller or larger divisions. For example German 1st Mountain Division had nearly 25 k men in 1939.

 

[Borachio]

So all other fronts of WW2 except for the Eastern Front = "phoney wars". Thanks for enlightening us, Borachio.

Hey! What do you mean?

I was just highlighting the stark contrast in figures dead, that's all. For me, it makes no difference: 1 death or a million are both tragedies.

 

[Tahuti]

Hey! What do you mean?

I was just highlighting the stark contrast in figures dead, that's all. For me, it makes no difference: 1 death or a million are both tragedies.

Joseph Stalin likes to have a word with you!