carmen510
Deity
Stormbringer, pretty nice AltHistory! (Although I agree with Symph)
Alternate History Thread III
- Thread starter Luckymoose
- Start date
Symphony D.
Deity
No. A very simple solution is to be had. Luftwaffe pilots do not accidentally bomb London. RAF in turn does not retaliate by bombing Berlin. Hitler does not become incensed and order the bombing of civilian targets. The Luftwaffe goes on to break the "Thin Blue Line" and asserts air superiority over the English Channel, the essential prerequisite of an invasion. Sealion then goes ahead as planned, diverting resources from Barbarossa, likely cancelling it entirely and an invasion of England then occurs, with whatever success one wishes.Stormbringer said:
Perhaps the Soviet Union then invades, perhaps it doesn't, whatever.
This is a POD relying upon pure chance. Things could have gone either way. It does not require having a historical character behaving wildly out of character for it to occur, merely a butterfly flapping its wings.
Similar PODs present themselves readily at Normandy (Hitler's aides wake him up and he authorizes Rommel to counterattack) or Market Garden (the British work with the Dutch resistance who had telephones, circumventing the iron-rich soil which made their radios malfunction; drops are closer, so on) or any number of other examples, all of which rely upon circumstance, not willful manipulation of individuals of importance into behaving in ways they simply would not have. You can't kill all of them easily or realistically. The best step is therefore to circumvent them entirely and then use the outcome to manipulate them in realistic ways.
The only way that Germany wins without inordinately bad luck on the part of the Allies (and you can go that route, and it's possible - bad luck happens - but it's obvious and bland) is to have Germany win early on only to be forced back and stalemated. Perhaps the British resistance manages to throw them out later or some such but Britain is too weak to continue and the Soviet Union signs a seperate peace so everyone gives up or something.
Otherwise Germany is a glowing crater by the time it ends. It has to decimate at least two out of its three opponents to secure something like that, and it can't touch the United States, so it must be the United Kingdom and Soviet Union, and that requires Sealion and Barbarossa to both work. Otherwise it's a losing war of attrition at best or an even more rapid collapse than in OTL at worst.
Stormbringer
The Brick and The Rose
Ok, Symphony, I just realized something. In 1940, after the fall of France, UK was alone in the war against Germany. In a couple places I found references to the fact that the UK refused peace talks at this point, I really wish I had information regarding these offers that Germany made. Regardless, which of the following to you believe to be the most plausable - German success in achieving air superiority over England or a succesful German capture of the French fleet, giving then a much needed boost in naval power, and making operation Sealion more likley?
Finally, if, somehow, England should fall to the Germans, would the United States intervene in the war, even if it had no allies in Europe left to speak of? Or would that war be limitted to the Pacific in this case?
Finally, if, somehow, England should fall to the Germans, would the United States intervene in the war, even if it had no allies in Europe left to speak of? Or would that war be limitted to the Pacific in this case?
Symphony D.
Deity
How on earth are the Germans going to capture a fleet that's in Morocco and Senegal? The Luftwaffe was on track to break the RAF through sheer continuous sorties and damage and depletion to their equipment. This is a historical fact. It was their mission shift to bombing civilian targets that gave the RAF the time and space needed to rebuild and ultimately repulse them.Stormbringer said:
I don't know that the United States would care unless Germany still honored the Axis Pact (for no reason) and declared war on America for declaring war on Japan. If Hitler is still in charge, he'd probably do it again, just because he does stupid things like that, in which case the United States might try an intervention in the British Isles somehow.
Stormbringer
The Brick and The Rose
Another question Symphony, the rescue of the French and British troops during the German invasion of France is often seen as a miracle. What would happen should the British fail to rescue the troops, and if the French and the British forces surrendered to the Germans? Would that have a significant effect on the outcome of the war between Germany and England?
So far we have:
The Luftwaffe is succesful at neutralizing the RAF, and secures air superiority over England. As a result the British navy is unable to stop a German assault on England proper, and operation Sealion is succesful. With all of Western Europe under German control the USA choses not to interfere in the war.
Either Hitler or Stalin would attack the other one, and I think we could argue that without the distraction of the other wars the German army could reach Moscow and force a humiliating peace on the Soviet Union. What would be the conditions of that peace treaty? What would happen to the Soviet Union/its leadership?
Finally, I see no reason for Japan not to attack the USA on schedule, but since the USA has chosen to stay out of the European theater Germany and Italy would chose not to support Japan. (Or would they? What would happen if they chose to support Japan?) Without any serious support from Germany and Italy the Japanese will score a few initial victories, and will then be defeated as per real life.
Question - having gained most of British/Frech/Dutch posessions in South East Asia, would Japan really attack the USA? What would be the motivation behind the attack?
So far we have:
The Luftwaffe is succesful at neutralizing the RAF, and secures air superiority over England. As a result the British navy is unable to stop a German assault on England proper, and operation Sealion is succesful. With all of Western Europe under German control the USA choses not to interfere in the war.
Either Hitler or Stalin would attack the other one, and I think we could argue that without the distraction of the other wars the German army could reach Moscow and force a humiliating peace on the Soviet Union. What would be the conditions of that peace treaty? What would happen to the Soviet Union/its leadership?
Finally, I see no reason for Japan not to attack the USA on schedule, but since the USA has chosen to stay out of the European theater Germany and Italy would chose not to support Japan. (Or would they? What would happen if they chose to support Japan?) Without any serious support from Germany and Italy the Japanese will score a few initial victories, and will then be defeated as per real life.
Question - having gained most of British/Frech/Dutch posessions in South East Asia, would Japan really attack the USA? What would be the motivation behind the attack?
Symphony D.
Deity
Maybe, but why would that happen? It was mostly conducted by civilian ships, not the military.
Just because they have Air Superiority over the Channel doesn't make it a cakewalk. Germany paratrooper divisions will still be grossly depleted from operations in the Netherlands and they'll be in hostile territory. Partisan attacks are quite likely, as is British Naval interference in any amphibious crossing. Britain can also rebase fighters farther north out of easy range of German fighter escorts to hamper continued inroads into the British Isles. Scottish and Welsh, whatever past conflicts they may have with the English, seem rather quite unlikely to welcome Germany with open arms, and I doubt the Irish would either. Britain is impaired and fighting for its life, not DOA.
Stalin might be rather better prepared since the Wehrmacht isn't really capable of fighting in both the UK and USSR at the same time. If anything, British resistance will probably sap strength away from any attack on (or defense against) the USSR. I do not believe it a foregone conclusion Germany will just magically reach the gates of Moscow while fighting a two front war. If anything, the USSR will come out probably marginally to significantly better, or perhaps about the same (any invasion of Russia will not fall sometime in 1941, leading to perhaps similar circumstances).
The notion of Stalin giving up power, or being replaced, should he survive any attack, is silly, He'd kill everyone who opposed him and start over. I don't see the Soviet Union conceding much except maybe their gains in Poland and Belorussia and Ukraine, tops. Maybe the Baltic states. That's assuming the Germans do pretty good.
The United States said jack-all about Europe and Hitler declared war on them after the declaration of war on Japan on December 8, 1941 anyway. He had no reason to do so whatsoever other than the agreement, and he'd broken plenty of agreements before. What's to stop him from doing similar here for no reason?
The US would likely begin forming North Atlantic convoys to supply the British with equipment to resist and throw out the German invasion, via say, Scotland and Ireland, along with airpower, perhaps send some sort of expeditionary force to assist the British.
How do they just miraculously gain them? France and the Netherlands fell and the colonies didn't just suddenly fall into Japanese hands, they had to fight for them, and the same would be true of British possessions which had their own garrisons. America still holds the Philippines and cut off Japan's supply routes and is still imposing a strangling embargo on Japan regardless; an attack is nigh inevitable.
Stormbringer
The Brick and The Rose
You know what...I just had an idea...does anyone have a map of the world around 1936?
Question for everyone: What do you think is the best date to start a historical NES between 1917 and 1936?
Question for everyone: What do you think is the best date to start a historical NES between 1917 and 1936?
The Strategos
Thanatos
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2002
- Messages
- 1,175
OOC: Continuing to experiment with non-dasian styles, so I would welcome comments about the style as much as comments about content. Also, just in case anyone actually cares, I have tentatively decided that my Ionian alt-hist is complete as I really like its unsettledness as it is now and can't bear to resolve things.
The Eternal Wait
It was an old joke, one whispered in forgotten corners where there was no danger of being overheard. Id rather be his pig (hus) than his son (huios). It was humorous in the unfunny way that truth often is. For in his realm, pigs were safe, as no one ate them, but his sons were not, as he showed no compulsion in mercilessly killing his own blood in order to keep his throne secure. It should be no surprise then, to discover that when he heard the rumors that a king was born who would one day wrest his kingdom from his hands, he acted with characteristic ruthlessness, ordering the slaughter of the handful of infants in the small, sleepy village that boasted to be the birthplace of a king. But the rumors, as rumors often are, were wrong. No royalty had been born, those who were waiting for God to act continued to wait. And so there remained in Israel no king but Herod.
And so people continued to live their lives as they had before. Unaware of how close they came to the curse of significance, they continued fishing, continued collecting taxes, continued teaching in synagogues, continued plotting against Rome. And so things remained as they were, which in this cursed land meant people continued to plot, assassinate, denounce, steal, lie, and swindle in the name of kings, emperors, nationalism, and religion. But this state of affairs, like all things, could not last. These particular affairs ended in quite the spectacular way as the entire land known as Judea revolted against the might of Rome. They were defeated, of course, as all but the most fanatical could have predicted. And as the Roman army marched towards Jerusalem, the Jewish rebels fractured into a multitude of groups, seemingly determined to kill each other and so deprive the Romans of that pleasure.
Rome, of course, politely waited, their armies camped outside of Jerusalem, determined that if their enemy was going to be as nice as to kill themselves, they wouldnt interfere. Eventually, however, one of the groups, the Pharisees, who had never really been enthusiastic about the revolt, seized the Temple Mount and offered the Romans a deal that they couldnt refuse: the Pharisees would deliver the city into the Roman hands in exchange for the Temple not being harmed. And thus it was, Rome leveled the city, killing and pillaging, but kept their promises. And so the Temple stood, its golden roof shining like a second sun, surrounded by nothing but ashes and rubble.
The Temple, and the city, however, were really never the same afterwards. The Romans had been thorough in their destruction of the city, enslaving much of its populous and taking everything of value in order to pay for the expensive campaign. As a result, the few people who were left were poor, unable to fund the sacrifices that had previously ascended to heaven. But no worries, the Pharisees proclaimed, for did not Adonai say through his prophets that what he desired was mercy not sacrifice? And so the Temple gradually phased out sacrifices, becoming rather a giant school with library, the main training center for the now religiously dominant Pharisees. Eventually, as people and wealth started trickling back to Jerusalem, attracted by the Temple, one of the wonders of the world, Jerusalem started to rival Athens and Alexandria as cities of learning.
In the rest of the Empire, things went on as it seemed they always had. Good emperors alternated with bad emperors, victories alternated with defeats, advances chased retreats like the sun chases the moon. Soon, despite the best efforts of several individuals, one got the distinct impression that the Empire was beginning to stagnate. In the cities, nobility lounged, their only movements the ones that lifted up their wine to their lips, even hiring others to carry their noble selves from party to party. The commoners were no better, living their lives from circus to circus, eating bread they did not earn, denouncing or acclaiming based on the state of their stomachs.
The state of the military was scarcely better. Many of the auxiliaries lounged around, spending their time gambling and whoring. Only on the border, hardened by constant raids of the bearded-ones did Marius spirit live on, though even there only dimly, mere fading stars to the burning sun which had shone before. It is here that many of the emperors arose, their claims backed by iron forged from the heat of many battles. Once in Rome, however, these generals turned Caesars were seduced by its splendors. Others were entrapped by its intrigues, like a fly caught in a spiders web, destroyed by an enemy they never saw. Only a few managed to rise above, small sparks that flew upward, burning brightly for a time before eternally vanishing.
It was one of these brief sparks that decided to divide the Empire, recognizing that one man could no longer protect or rule so vast a land. So he took the title Augustus of the East, making one of the sycophants that Rome acclaimed so loudly as the Augustus of the West. Under these Augusti, were four Caesars, each charged with defending the Empire. In the east, the new Augustus built a city where the small Greek town of Byzantium stood, laying out a capital that was as much fort as city, an austere camp compared to the glitter of Rome. It was from this city, renamed Caesaropolis, the city of Caesars, that a line of warrior-emperors ruled who managed to stabilize the border in the east, checking the barbarian hordes, dedicating their many victories to Mithras, their martial protector.
Thus, like a flowing river, the invading tribes followed the path of least resistance, turning away from the well fortified east to the west. There they found Rome, the city of conquerors, waiting for them. But the Rome who once caused even the starts to tremble was no more. When the last of her great warrior-generals left to establish his eastern capital, he took the best legions with him, leaving behind only disciplineless mobs that defamed the name Roman legion.
It was not surprising, then, that the so-called legions crumbled before the onslaught, like a wooden shack before a flooding river. In desperation the Augustus of the West sent a message to one of his Caesars who was then in Britannia, demanding that he abandon it to the northern Picts in order to defend Mother Rome. Unfortunately for the Augustus, the Caesar did not see Rome as his mother, and, having married a native Briton, could not bear to see his adopted country burn in order to save a city he had only seen once. Thus the legions of Britannia, which might have saved Rome, did not move, sitting with dry eyes while Rome burned.
The Eternal Wait
~5 BCE-375 CE
It was an old joke, one whispered in forgotten corners where there was no danger of being overheard. Id rather be his pig (hus) than his son (huios). It was humorous in the unfunny way that truth often is. For in his realm, pigs were safe, as no one ate them, but his sons were not, as he showed no compulsion in mercilessly killing his own blood in order to keep his throne secure. It should be no surprise then, to discover that when he heard the rumors that a king was born who would one day wrest his kingdom from his hands, he acted with characteristic ruthlessness, ordering the slaughter of the handful of infants in the small, sleepy village that boasted to be the birthplace of a king. But the rumors, as rumors often are, were wrong. No royalty had been born, those who were waiting for God to act continued to wait. And so there remained in Israel no king but Herod.
And so people continued to live their lives as they had before. Unaware of how close they came to the curse of significance, they continued fishing, continued collecting taxes, continued teaching in synagogues, continued plotting against Rome. And so things remained as they were, which in this cursed land meant people continued to plot, assassinate, denounce, steal, lie, and swindle in the name of kings, emperors, nationalism, and religion. But this state of affairs, like all things, could not last. These particular affairs ended in quite the spectacular way as the entire land known as Judea revolted against the might of Rome. They were defeated, of course, as all but the most fanatical could have predicted. And as the Roman army marched towards Jerusalem, the Jewish rebels fractured into a multitude of groups, seemingly determined to kill each other and so deprive the Romans of that pleasure.
Rome, of course, politely waited, their armies camped outside of Jerusalem, determined that if their enemy was going to be as nice as to kill themselves, they wouldnt interfere. Eventually, however, one of the groups, the Pharisees, who had never really been enthusiastic about the revolt, seized the Temple Mount and offered the Romans a deal that they couldnt refuse: the Pharisees would deliver the city into the Roman hands in exchange for the Temple not being harmed. And thus it was, Rome leveled the city, killing and pillaging, but kept their promises. And so the Temple stood, its golden roof shining like a second sun, surrounded by nothing but ashes and rubble.
The Temple, and the city, however, were really never the same afterwards. The Romans had been thorough in their destruction of the city, enslaving much of its populous and taking everything of value in order to pay for the expensive campaign. As a result, the few people who were left were poor, unable to fund the sacrifices that had previously ascended to heaven. But no worries, the Pharisees proclaimed, for did not Adonai say through his prophets that what he desired was mercy not sacrifice? And so the Temple gradually phased out sacrifices, becoming rather a giant school with library, the main training center for the now religiously dominant Pharisees. Eventually, as people and wealth started trickling back to Jerusalem, attracted by the Temple, one of the wonders of the world, Jerusalem started to rival Athens and Alexandria as cities of learning.
In the rest of the Empire, things went on as it seemed they always had. Good emperors alternated with bad emperors, victories alternated with defeats, advances chased retreats like the sun chases the moon. Soon, despite the best efforts of several individuals, one got the distinct impression that the Empire was beginning to stagnate. In the cities, nobility lounged, their only movements the ones that lifted up their wine to their lips, even hiring others to carry their noble selves from party to party. The commoners were no better, living their lives from circus to circus, eating bread they did not earn, denouncing or acclaiming based on the state of their stomachs.
The state of the military was scarcely better. Many of the auxiliaries lounged around, spending their time gambling and whoring. Only on the border, hardened by constant raids of the bearded-ones did Marius spirit live on, though even there only dimly, mere fading stars to the burning sun which had shone before. It is here that many of the emperors arose, their claims backed by iron forged from the heat of many battles. Once in Rome, however, these generals turned Caesars were seduced by its splendors. Others were entrapped by its intrigues, like a fly caught in a spiders web, destroyed by an enemy they never saw. Only a few managed to rise above, small sparks that flew upward, burning brightly for a time before eternally vanishing.
It was one of these brief sparks that decided to divide the Empire, recognizing that one man could no longer protect or rule so vast a land. So he took the title Augustus of the East, making one of the sycophants that Rome acclaimed so loudly as the Augustus of the West. Under these Augusti, were four Caesars, each charged with defending the Empire. In the east, the new Augustus built a city where the small Greek town of Byzantium stood, laying out a capital that was as much fort as city, an austere camp compared to the glitter of Rome. It was from this city, renamed Caesaropolis, the city of Caesars, that a line of warrior-emperors ruled who managed to stabilize the border in the east, checking the barbarian hordes, dedicating their many victories to Mithras, their martial protector.
Thus, like a flowing river, the invading tribes followed the path of least resistance, turning away from the well fortified east to the west. There they found Rome, the city of conquerors, waiting for them. But the Rome who once caused even the starts to tremble was no more. When the last of her great warrior-generals left to establish his eastern capital, he took the best legions with him, leaving behind only disciplineless mobs that defamed the name Roman legion.
It was not surprising, then, that the so-called legions crumbled before the onslaught, like a wooden shack before a flooding river. In desperation the Augustus of the West sent a message to one of his Caesars who was then in Britannia, demanding that he abandon it to the northern Picts in order to defend Mother Rome. Unfortunately for the Augustus, the Caesar did not see Rome as his mother, and, having married a native Briton, could not bear to see his adopted country burn in order to save a city he had only seen once. Thus the legions of Britannia, which might have saved Rome, did not move, sitting with dry eyes while Rome burned.
das
Regeneration In Process
Symphony will hate me, but I'm in favour of 2040 - there is far more conflict there, and lots of great powers, including some "untraditional" ones. Plus, to answer your first demand, Disenfrancised did make a 2040 map a while ago.
More than a bit farfetched on numerous counts, but the premise itself definitely has merit, especially if we can avoid a 1990s scenario by having a major isolationist backlash in the USA after the "War-in-Sight Crisis II", especially as there isn't much of a Red Menace left to contain. Then we could have an interesting multipolar world for the 1960s (which would be the best starting point for the NES); on one hand, the decolonisation is probably progressing slower, and the colonial powers may yet decide to stay such, but on the other hand I'd imagine that China and India would grow in importance and possibly try to meddle with the anti-colonial movements. As the Warsaw Pact will presumably collapse, Germany will reunite and may make a new bid for dominance, though it would probably be a more cautious (diplomatic/economic) one; that would be up to the player, ofcourse. I don't think there will be an EU in this world, btw.
1925 (for Cold War NES-type playing style, with lots of diplomacy; that was the year of Locarno, after all. There are also powerstruggles in the USSR, and lots of other interesting events we could tie in if we want as well) or 1934 (for a more war-oriented NES; its better than the latter dates due to greater player freedom, Hitler is still only beginning to fortify his power and hasn't found any allies yet, and the others are also still plotting their new diplomatic combinations, so its going to very nonlinear, which is almost always good in a NES).
das
Regeneration In Process
Read up on it some first. That's when things get really multipolar and nonlinear, with lots of rising great powers, including somewhat unusual ones.
The Strategos, it looks nice, but I haven't saved it in time and have been having trouble accessing the forum until just now, and its quite late. Will read it tommorow. As for the non-dasian style thing, I do plan to make some stylistic changes for the next althist I'll do. Still brainstorming on it, though.
Symphony D.
Deity
If I play, I will pave you all over with the technology that period affords in about 5 turns, because I've been plotting on using certain things for about a year now, and all the ideas are fairly well developed. It's you who will be hating me.das said:
The map was also rather vaguely defined at best.I remain steadfastly opposed to the very idea of historical NESes at this time, personally.Stormbringer said:
I really should write the article I've been intending to for awhile now, but I will state it briefly: technology is a force multiplier. Technology as of that time is of such an extreme that with slight modifications it becomes an overwhelming force multiplier. Things are nowhere near as balanced as the geopolitical situation would seem ti imply once this is factored in.das said:
I know you don't tend to buy this given past discussions, but technology becomes more and more a determining factor as time goes on up to present, and once you advance towards the future, it becomes a nigh overwhelming one, because in the future, it's data and knowledge, not resources, that matter.
Don't listen to that man, he's suicidal.Azale said:
And prepare to be bombarded with about 2.3 million data links. You think I'm joking, don't you?
If I get back into moding, this is what I probably will mod: (I can't imagine it lasting for more then ten turns without someone nuking the world, so it would be low-commitment.)
INES II: Insane Cold War
Based around the premise that everyone at Yalta went insane, and a map das found somewhere, this NES would be of an alternate world in 1950. There’s a more specific alt-hist in the works, but it doesn’t really seem necessary, as the situation is so implausible, anyway. (The assumption is that most people have come to their senses by 1950, and so naturally get back to the tasks of killing each other.)
Here’s what I have so far of the alhist. Remember the premise, so no complaining about a lack of logic. Also, be aware I wrote this very quickly, and with very little research, so don’t worry about offending me by pointing out mistakes.
Alhistory:
Here’s the map:
(Before anyone asks, Zanzibar is British.)
And here’s a list of nations, with their eco totals next to them, and a very brief listing of rebel groups within each:
Alternatively, if Azale or someone else would like to mod this now, I wouldn't put up much of a fight, as my targeted release date is far in the future.
INES II: Insane Cold War
Based around the premise that everyone at Yalta went insane, and a map das found somewhere, this NES would be of an alternate world in 1950. There’s a more specific alt-hist in the works, but it doesn’t really seem necessary, as the situation is so implausible, anyway. (The assumption is that most people have come to their senses by 1950, and so naturally get back to the tasks of killing each other.)
Here’s what I have so far of the alhist. Remember the premise, so no complaining about a lack of logic. Also, be aware I wrote this very quickly, and with very little research, so don’t worry about offending me by pointing out mistakes.
Alhistory:
Spoiler :
Here’s the map:
(Before anyone asks, Zanzibar is British.)
Spoiler :
And here’s a list of nations, with their eco totals next to them, and a very brief listing of rebel groups within each:
Spoiler :
Alternatively, if Azale or someone else would like to mod this now, I wouldn't put up much of a fight, as my targeted release date is far in the future.
And you wouldn't continue INES Ib? 
Looks hugely unlikely, but that's the point. However, I don't think the game would be very fun. Too much concentration of power, one coalition could conquer the world.
Of course, there would be lots of intrigue and betrayal...
Looks hugely unlikely, but that's the point. However, I don't think the game would be very fun. Too much concentration of power, one coalition could conquer the world.
Of course, there would be lots of intrigue and betrayal...
North King
blech
- Joined
- Jan 2, 2004
- Messages
- 18,165
No, don't do that. Too much potential for rebellion, and that gets tiring.
I really don't think I would have enough time for that, as I have said.
But nobody's actually done that before!
(And don't quote NES VI. Dis was going his own way for quite a while at the end, and how long do you really think Panda and Symph could stay allied in a hypothetical third IT?)Exactly. With fifteen nations, there seems to be a signifigant chance of filling them all with players.
The potential for rebellion is one of the highlights of the idea. The world is greatly unstable. And, if you don't like the idea of defending against constant rebellion, you can always be one. (or take something like Turkey)
North King
blech
- Joined
- Jan 2, 2004
- Messages
- 18,165
I can't express my distaste enough at the idea, then. Potential for rebellion is an entirely too often abused angle of NESing.
