KaiserElectric
Total Freakin Besties
- Joined
- Dec 2, 2007
- Messages
- 3,461
Didn't get it at all.
Alternate History Thread V
- Thread starter Dachs
- Start date
A few relevant panels:
Hot chick walks in, asks if she can use the internet. Security guard lets her know where it is and thinks to himself that the library could use more hot chicks.
Near the bottom, hot chick gets off the computer thinking that that was the fastest half hour in history. In the next panel, security guard wanders by and sees that somebody - by implication, the hot chick1 - has left the alternate history boards open on the computer, and thinks to himself that the library could use fewer alternate history weirdos. It's the usual viruscomix juxtaposition of people engaging in hobbies or pastimes that you wouldn't expect at first blush.
1 She's also been in an alternate history museum of sorts in a different episode of viruscomix.
Hot chick walks in, asks if she can use the internet. Security guard lets her know where it is and thinks to himself that the library could use more hot chicks.
Near the bottom, hot chick gets off the computer thinking that that was the fastest half hour in history. In the next panel, security guard wanders by and sees that somebody - by implication, the hot chick1 - has left the alternate history boards open on the computer, and thinks to himself that the library could use fewer alternate history weirdos. It's the usual viruscomix juxtaposition of people engaging in hobbies or pastimes that you wouldn't expect at first blush.
1 She's also been in an alternate history museum of sorts in a different episode of viruscomix.
Abaddon
Deity
Thank you Dachs
It was almost funny when explained though.
Unlikely.
Shadowbound
Incorrugible
- Joined
- Mar 4, 2007
- Messages
- 4,079
Surviving the Spanish is a pretty big If, especially if they refused to convert. A rich, pagan nation with lots of enemies is a pretty big target for the next three or four centuries.
das
Regeneration In Process
Why not? European contact would have led to societal and cultural breakdown anyway. Christianity... or a local version of Christianity... might well have taken form.
Of course then there is still the question of why wouldn't Spain finish the job after that...
Of course then there is still the question of why wouldn't Spain finish the job after that...
I was also kind of wondering if Cortez chose not attack the Aztecs (and disobey the Spanish Government) that then what would be the fate of the Aztecs? Like would some other European power conquer the Aztecs instead?
And now that I think about it, the Aztecs probably were doomed to fall because of small pox, and how many enemies the Aztecs created over the years. Maybe the missionaries would convert people from the smaller states or cities under Aztec control.
But I think that the Incan stood a better chance of survival (especially if they converted), because of several reasons. The Incan were certainly in a harder to reach area than the Aztecs. But also according to the book 1491, it states that there were Conquistadors who were complaining their horses were useless because the Incan roads weren't really made for horses. Cannons would probably have also been of little use or at least cumbersome in that type of terrain. So I don't know exactly why other than small pox, fell to the Spanish. Any ideas? And I'm not saying I know a lot I'm just here because I thought it would interesting to discuss.
And now that I think about it, the Aztecs probably were doomed to fall because of small pox, and how many enemies the Aztecs created over the years. Maybe the missionaries would convert people from the smaller states or cities under Aztec control.
But I think that the Incan stood a better chance of survival (especially if they converted), because of several reasons. The Incan were certainly in a harder to reach area than the Aztecs. But also according to the book 1491, it states that there were Conquistadors who were complaining their horses were useless because the Incan roads weren't really made for horses. Cannons would probably have also been of little use or at least cumbersome in that type of terrain. So I don't know exactly why other than small pox, fell to the Spanish. Any ideas? And I'm not saying I know a lot I'm just here because I thought it would interesting to discuss.
Ninja Dude
Sorry, I wasn't listening...
The Incan Empire was in a state of civil war when it was conquered, if I recall correctly. Probably made the job way easier.
Luckymoose
The World is Mine
Huascar and Atahualpa were fighting over the throne after their father died. No one is quite sure what happened to their father but there is some evidence that Spanish diseases found their way south long before the Spanish did. IMO if the Inka had been at their strongest, which was maybe a decade prior to the arrival of Pizarro, his invasion would have been utterly raped. It might have even been the Gold Coast all over again.
So I'm wanting to do an 18th-19th century timeline now, and a couple of ideas are bouncing around in my head. I was hoping to get some feedback on the most plausible (or at least as plausible as these things can be!) and most interesting ideas/ most likely to lead to interesting stuff. So...
Option One: The Albany Plan succeeds. (1754)
Commentary: This one will be the most difficult to bring about through historical alterations, but it seems to me that having the plan reach London earlier would be likely to bring about some sort of change, as the British government at the time was particularly eager to organize a central government for the colonies.
Repercussions: Likely a more favorable ending for the Indians, and the big one, a likely unified America and England lasting into the 19th century. This leads to all sorts of fun stuff, but has been done before by Das.
Option Two: Napoleon chooses to appoint Prince Ferdinand as puppet king in Spain, not his hapless brother. (1808)
Commentary: Along many Napoleonic alternate ideas, this one is plausible IMO, because at the Bayonne Conference he was remarkably close to doing just that. While Napoleon's ultimate demise and defeat are probably inevitable the lack of a Peninsular ulcer would make things considerably more interesting.
Repercussions : Napoleon may very well last longer, and the German uprisings after a defeat in Russia will probably experience a severe defeat. After that however, it can be difficult to say, considering the near-impossibility of a conquest of both Britain and Russia.
Option Three: At Leipzig Napoleon withdraws his forces on the 18th, taking the defeat but also salvaging a huge portion of his army for the upcoming defense of France.
Commentary: I find this point to be quite personally appealing, particularly as it allows for more brilliance like the Six Days Campaign. It isn't a horribly implausible idea either, as Napoleon considered and was urged a withdrawal on this day historically.
Repercussions: If this were to occur, it could perhaps lead (with certainly some generous butterflies) a French acceptance of the "natural borders" treaty if Napoleon could be made to see reason with some generous urging from our friend Talleyrand. Doubtless he would lead the French to war later over some injustice real or perceived, yet that is great enough change in itself.
Option Four: The French emerge victorious at Waterloo. (1815)
Commentary: A near run-thing it was, and clearly had Ney acted with the slightest bit of competence or if Grouchy had marched to the sound of the guns, or if Ligny had properly been followed-up upon a French victory appears quite likely. Oh, and this is done to death.
Repercussions: While Napoleon was clearly doomed in 1815, a victory at Waterloo certainly spices things up a fair bit. It gives Buonaparte room to mess with the machinations of Fouche and Talleyrand, and galvanize support for a possible guerrilla campaign or just a new national enlistment.
Option Five: The Swiss Sonderbund finds victory, after support from Paris. (1847)
Commentary: This is based off an old thing I did and may now expand upon. It involves Louis-Phillippe's intervention and increased strength of the Swiss Sonderbund (conservative coalition.). Link to the original stuff here.
Repercussions: The increased moral authority leads to the survival of the July Monarchy, while all sorts of possibilities emerge regarding the boiling pot Europe was in '48. Some ideas are an increased Italian fractiousness, and hey, even the possibility of that old alt-hist standby, Greater Germany.
Option One: The Albany Plan succeeds. (1754)
Commentary: This one will be the most difficult to bring about through historical alterations, but it seems to me that having the plan reach London earlier would be likely to bring about some sort of change, as the British government at the time was particularly eager to organize a central government for the colonies.
Repercussions: Likely a more favorable ending for the Indians, and the big one, a likely unified America and England lasting into the 19th century. This leads to all sorts of fun stuff, but has been done before by Das.
Option Two: Napoleon chooses to appoint Prince Ferdinand as puppet king in Spain, not his hapless brother. (1808)
Commentary: Along many Napoleonic alternate ideas, this one is plausible IMO, because at the Bayonne Conference he was remarkably close to doing just that. While Napoleon's ultimate demise and defeat are probably inevitable the lack of a Peninsular ulcer would make things considerably more interesting.
Repercussions : Napoleon may very well last longer, and the German uprisings after a defeat in Russia will probably experience a severe defeat. After that however, it can be difficult to say, considering the near-impossibility of a conquest of both Britain and Russia.
Option Three: At Leipzig Napoleon withdraws his forces on the 18th, taking the defeat but also salvaging a huge portion of his army for the upcoming defense of France.
Commentary: I find this point to be quite personally appealing, particularly as it allows for more brilliance like the Six Days Campaign. It isn't a horribly implausible idea either, as Napoleon considered and was urged a withdrawal on this day historically.
Repercussions: If this were to occur, it could perhaps lead (with certainly some generous butterflies) a French acceptance of the "natural borders" treaty if Napoleon could be made to see reason with some generous urging from our friend Talleyrand. Doubtless he would lead the French to war later over some injustice real or perceived, yet that is great enough change in itself.
Option Four: The French emerge victorious at Waterloo. (1815)
Commentary: A near run-thing it was, and clearly had Ney acted with the slightest bit of competence or if Grouchy had marched to the sound of the guns, or if Ligny had properly been followed-up upon a French victory appears quite likely. Oh, and this is done to death.
Repercussions: While Napoleon was clearly doomed in 1815, a victory at Waterloo certainly spices things up a fair bit. It gives Buonaparte room to mess with the machinations of Fouche and Talleyrand, and galvanize support for a possible guerrilla campaign or just a new national enlistment.
Option Five: The Swiss Sonderbund finds victory, after support from Paris. (1847)
Commentary: This is based off an old thing I did and may now expand upon. It involves Louis-Phillippe's intervention and increased strength of the Swiss Sonderbund (conservative coalition.). Link to the original stuff here.
Repercussions: The increased moral authority leads to the survival of the July Monarchy, while all sorts of possibilities emerge regarding the boiling pot Europe was in '48. Some ideas are an increased Italian fractiousness, and hey, even the possibility of that old alt-hist standby, Greater Germany.
I always liked this TL idea a lot and I think it could be very good if played with a bit. The other good part about it is that it hasn't been overdone to death.
das
Regeneration In Process
Yes, go for that.
Re: Waterloo, I think the main consequences would've been in the post-war state of Europe and of France. I doubt a guerrilla campaign was in the books by 1815; France has been bled white.
Re: Waterloo, I think the main consequences would've been in the post-war state of Europe and of France. I doubt a guerrilla campaign was in the books by 1815; France has been bled white.
It seems opinion is pretty favorable towards the Sonderbund. Exciting!
@Das, probably not, but towards the end of the 1814 campaign, peasants in, IIRC, Champagne and Alsace-Lorraine were getting quite fed-up with the predations of the allied forces, some going even so far as to fall on more minor expeditions. With more sustained fighting, who knows what may have evolved.
@Das, probably not, but towards the end of the 1814 campaign, peasants in, IIRC, Champagne and Alsace-Lorraine were getting quite fed-up with the predations of the allied forces, some going even so far as to fall on more minor expeditions. With more sustained fighting, who knows what may have evolved.
Ah yes, attempting to strike that balance between "not boring" and "plausible".
...this is supposed to be plausible, isn't it?
If Napoleon had withdrawn his forces after Leipzig, you'd have to look at the winter campaigns and the fortress warfare in the Low Countries that nobody (especially not Chandler, who apparently found it boring due to the lack of cool battles). Michael Leggiere wrote the book on that janx. You should take a look into that.Yui108 said:
Not sure what kind of meaningful alterations you're expecting out of that, though.
I reaaaally want for it to be. Well, at least as plausible as this sort of stuff can be.
That response wasn't directed about the Leipzig divergence, rather the possibility of sustained French resistance after a victory at Waterloo. But I will try and find that book anyways, sounds interesting.
Neither am I, at least not yet.
Oh yeah sorry to go off the current topic, but lets say the French lost the Battle of Tours and assuming the Muslims were able to penetrate deeper into Europe, what would be the fate of the papacy/roman catholic church, and the age of discovery/colonialism? Would the papacy still survive or would it be destroyed under Islamic rule? And would colonization of the Americas happen under Islamic Rule of Europe? Would it happen sooner? Later? Maybe even never? And lastly, assuming they did colonize the New World, how would they treat/deal with the native people living there at the time? Sorry to ask all of this, but I'm kinda writing an alternate history myself.
Thlayli
Le Pétit Prince
Long story short, Tours wasn't as important as it was made out to be.
At best, Southern France would look something similar to Southern Italy at the height of the Saracen pirate era.
At best, Southern France would look something similar to Southern Italy at the height of the Saracen pirate era.
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